Abacus' Thomas Sung Interviewed

Interviewee: Thomas Sung

Interviewers: Anne Chao; Patricia Wong

Date/Time of Interview: October 11, 2018

Transcribed by: Priscilla Li, TaylorGinter (11/2/2018)

AudioTrackTime:02:02:00

Edited by: Anne Chao

Background: Thomas Sung was born in Shanghai, China in 1935. He lived in Chongqing during the Resist Japan war, and moved to Hong Kong in 1948. His family briefly stayed in Brazil and eventually immigrated to the United States in1952. He earned a bachelor and a master’s degree in agricultural economics in 1959 and continued his study in accounting and finance for two years at the University of Florida. 

While attending the University, he managed his family’s ranch until 1961 when he moved to New York. 

He worked with several large corporations as an economic and financial analyst while attending law school at night and began his legal career in 1965 after graduating from Brooklyn Law School. His practice was largely concentrated in immigration and general law. 

In 1984, he founded the Abacus Federal Savings Bank which also owns Abacus Insurance Agency Corp and Abacus International Capital Corp. In his career as an attorney and banker, he devoted countless hours to pro bono work for the Chinese community in New York Chinatown. The mission of the Abacus Bank is to also serve the community. Mostly Chinese immigrants.

In 2012, the  Abacus Bank was unfortunately

indicted by New York County District Attorney’s office on various charges relating to mortgage fraud.

The Abacus Bank survived the indictment; after 5 months of trial, the Bank was totally vindicated.

The documentary film, “Abacus: Small Enough to Jail,” captured vividly the legal proceedings. The same film received many awards including Oscar nomination, Emmy Award and Silver Gavel Award by the American Bar Association, etc.

Setting: The interview took place in the conference room of Abacus Savings Bank, the interviewers were Anne Chao and Patricia Wong.

Key:

TS: Thomas Sung

AC: Anne Chao

PW: Patricia Wong

Interview transcript:

AC: Good morning Mr.Sung.

[TS:Yes.Goodmorning.]

Thank you so much for allowing us to interview

you. I’m Anne Chao and my partner is Patricia Wong and we’re from the Houston Asian American Archive. And today is October 11th, Thursday, 2018. Uh we’d like to start the interview by maybe asking

if you can tell us where you were born and a little bit about your childhood.

TS: Okay. First of all, let me thank you for coming. We appreciate your making this long trip. Uh I was

born in Shanghai in 1935. Uh when- uh two years after I was born, uh as you-if you-you may not be old enough to go back to that period of time, that was the beginning of the Japanese war. So  we moved to Chongqing, my family, my father, myself moved to Chongqing. And there I was there for at

least 8 years, 8½ years, during the 8 years fighting against the Japanese during the war. And after war 

then  the country was of course then was in several states.  The nationalists were in war with the communists, the current, current government. And we moved out of China in 1948 to Hong Kong. In

Hong Kong, I remember I studied junior high school for two years. It was a tough time ‘cause

Cantonese is different than the language that I learned which is uh Szechuan and also Guoyu.  And then

of course my native,  I mean not native in the sense-my parents are from Suzhou, so they speak the Shanghai dialect more or less. So they took a long period of some what difficult learning and we

learned Cantonese. And then the Korean War started so we were fearful that the war might affect Hong

Kong so we hurriedly -  when I say we I mean my family, my father, mother and my siblings,  went

to uh-uh came to United States, we find out that we couldn’t stay and for good - for a reason which we

can go into, at the time it was a tail end of the Asian Pacific Exclusion Act,  otherwise known as

Warren-McCarran Act, which only allow like 105 Chinese per year.  So everybody  who comes over to this country from that area, China of course is the target area, would be considered potential immigrants so we couldn’t stay. So then we went to Brazil and in Brazil I stayed for approximately six months. Maybe a little bit more, didn’t go to school or anything like that. Just acquire our 

residence in Brazil. And as a result of acquiring the permanent residence status in Brazil, we were then

able to obtain non-immigrant visa because we now have a place to return, tentatively speaking from the

immigration law point of view.

So then , then we came into the United States as a student. My sisters and two brothers

came as a one brother came in as a student. Then of course when we came in here, the

immigration and in those days, it’s called the immigration service, the naturalization service consider

us a potential immigrant, or a non bona fide non-immigrant. So we were detained and I was uh-I recall I

was on Ellis Island approximately three months. I go through hearing. Ellis Island now today is a very

interesting historical place now for people to visit and I even have my family's name in the roster of people on the Ellis Island. So that was a pretty interesting story. Shall I continue?

AC: Well going back a little bit when you were in Chongqing, what was your father’s profession and how many siblings do you have?

TS: Okay sure. My father yeah, my father had a very interesting childhood. I don’t know if you want to hear all about that. But any way to answer your question directly, he was in the bristle business. Bristle business is the hog hair. Hog hair is you know is part of the hog. Hog is pig, right? We - here we refer to as hog.[laughs] And that strip of hair in the back is long, and stiff. Right?And that hair is

utilized for brushes, for paint brushes and so forth. So he was in that business at one time, he

was the largest white bristle manufacturer in Chongqing. So that was essentially what he’s-his business

was. Zhu zong [豬鬃] we call it.

AC: Zhu zong [豬鬃]. I remember I think Vera mentioned when we were together in Houston that he

was an orphan?

TS: Yes so-

AC: Do you want to tell a little bit about your father’s story?

TS: Sure, I’d be happy to. My father always love to hear my father’s story. as

against, I mean not against different from my other siblings. I was the next youngest for 8 years period, I was the youngest one,right so,[laughs] Chinese family favors the oldest one, no question about

that. And sometimes the youngest one also gets a little bit more attention. So my father tells me the

story. He was a, he was-his father died when he was three. And his mother of course, my

grandmother, real grandmother was not able to raise him uh did not, could not afford it. So she gave him to

the uncle, his uncle, for as a son. Chinese have that practice. Right? If you couldn't raise your son, you give it to your relative to raise the son. Well that’d be quite normal, you would say what’s bad about that? Right, your uncle did not have a son, and you get the son from your brother who died.

And that’d be fine, except , the uncle -my father’s uncle’s wife is from the brothels.

Not a good reputable place. When my grandfather, real grandfather was alive, because, he and his brother very similar in terms of voice, in terms of look. And my grandfather, I was told by my father, would always come home and sometimes mistaken by the wife of my grandfather, you know [inaudible]. Thought maybe it was him and he would be always very angry because he was looked down upon…and, so there was that hard feeling in the family about each other.

So when, when my grandfather died and my father was given to him to raise as his son, the so called grandmother who had no children, then saw- and took revenge on him. On my father. And they also adopted a daughter, that’s why you know, my father’s uncle also adopt a daughter. But the daughter had no relationship with the family right, no blood relationship, but was treated very favorably, so to say.

And then the description was to me was,  you know the Chinese wear the qi pao. Qi pao is Chinese gown. The woman’s clothes, you know qi pao is on one side. And the man clothes are on the

other side right. So my father get to wear what his sister-sister’s clothes. And when he goes to school,

everybody of course notice that he was wearing a female qi pao. Qipao is a robe, I guess you can call it a robe, right.

[AC: Right.] 

And so they, he was always jeered at and made fun of and so forth. And he didn’t have proper shoes to wear and this and so it really took the punishment that, that my father’s

father gave it to the mother and so-revenge on him. So much so that he said that he had attempted suicide three times. They were, they were that tough. So that was the story for my father in terms of childhood as an orphan.

As a result of that, he is always particularly conscientious of people - the orphan, and when he become successful in his very young age and work extremely hard I’ll show you a book about him, part about him. So what he did was he said, okay and I’ve become successful and made a good you know amount of resources and I will now try to develop an orphanage and in that orphanage which is right next to the factory. And he had the conception that orphans, nobody taken care of, said we will make yang 樣(?), let the orphan develop, right into maturity. And the orphan can always have a job going to the factory. So his

factory had approximately a thousand people working but he had the orphanage almost 1000 orphans, small orphan. And that was his story in Chongqing, until the time when the

Nationalists pull out of China, pull out of Chongqing and you know they were defeated by the current Mao’s government. So that was the story about that childhood, but there were many, many things during that childhood I can remember during the Japanese war, how the Chinese flee from the Japanese [clears throat] of course invasion.

We, in Chongqing, the Japanese could not conquer, or extend itself into the interior, but they try to bomb the city into submission, and that was a period of time I guess my wife tells you about his

father fought in the air force I remember in Chongqing there were three air shelters and we call them fáng kōng dòng [防空洞]. Fáng kōng dòng [防空洞] is a natural cave and you see in here,

in this country, a very beautiful caves right-in I forgot it was inTennessee or some where. You could go

in there you see the drips as result of calcium drop, you know, drop down. Almost like teeth of a dragon-you know loong dong [龍洞]. They call it loong dong [龍洞]. And there were three these types of air shelters. In Chongqing and when the Japanese airforce would come bombing, you come first with a they have a-in the high part of the city wherever they find, they would have three type of

ball-colored, right and first when the airplane no longer there, you would have the green one. And when the airplanes coming, you had the yellow one coming up. And then they would have the red one

coming up. That’s means the airplane’s already there. When that comes, then you hear the siren, blowing.

And I just described some about the old days.

And so, so one day the Japanese came and people were of course in the shelter, thousands of people in the shelters and we don’t know what, who inform the airplane, the Japanese bomber, and they bomb the entrance to the three air shelters. And the people were suffocated to death, in terms of thousands of people. They said, you could hear people even after they open the shelter, remove the dead bodies, they said, the spirit was there. So bad and it really, in that period of time, and I remember I was of course young then, I wanted to join-in those days, tong zi jun [童軍], you know the like boy scout thing, right. And you want to march,I said, “gee I want to be a soldier.” [laughs] Everybody wanted to fight the Japanese, right.

And one interesting experience I told in an FBI interview for employer- he became my friend, unfortunately he died. And I said, one experience I can never forget in Chongqing,  when the United

States dropped the atom bomb. The story was the atom bomb is about the size of a golf ball. But it’s not, right. We all know now it’s not a golf ball size. And the Japanese unconditionally surrendered after the second atom bomb dropped, in Japan, in Hiroshima. So everybody was so ecstatic, so happy and,  went to local town. And Chinese always like firecracker. You know firecracker is a...is a tradition. Every

New Year’s, we light firecrackers and firecracker supposed to be getting rid of the evil spirit and welcome the New Year coming. And as kids we always get so excited about New Year coming, for three days, firecracker. So all the firecrackers in the store were gone, and everybody was lighting firecracker. Oh I was so happy, I was jumping and, you know when people get high. They say when you’re an athlete, sometimes you get high. I felt like I was in the air, going higher and higher, flying. And that experience lasted with me even when-years after. Now I don’t, I don’t dream about it anymore, but I dream about floating in the air because of that experience.

AC: And then so how-when did your father decide to leave everything in Chongqing and start again in

Hong Kong?

TS: Yeah. That was interesting too. When the agitation come, of course you’re

regarded as an industrialist, right. And the so when the strike, strike is no small thing when you havea

thousand workers right…comes strike. And then my father would have them-they were all there

striking, they get together. He would explain to them, say “look, why don’t we just cooperate. It’s

good thing. You people have a good place to make a living and we’re doing good things for the village for the society.” So the crowd dissipated. Alright, so that was fine. And then as it get closer, to the evacuation of the Nationalists coming more of the people’s government, the strike organized again.This time though, it was vicious because there were people in the really

was agitated and I remember when I was a child, sometimes we, we lived in home was away in Hwang 黃 in Nan’an [南岸]. The factory was near Chongqing city itself , I suppose because there was

more population there, all right. And we then- then had police department there, with machine guns so forth guarding the entrance. And then my father said, “well if you cannot listen to reason, then there’s no choice for me.” And people just didn’t think that he would leave and abandon all his assets but he saw. That much I really think my father was great in that sense-he’s sort of a predicted the difficult time at that time. He said no way for him to survive, you know in the

environment that was then, he would put into.

So, he said that we have to leave. So he picked up everything, closed the factory, abandoned all his assets in China. And for awhile, not only he had office in Chongqing, but he had branches in different major cities in Chongqing. And I remember even remember I went to Hankou, 漢口是不是湖北？

[Is Hankou in Hubei?] Yeah along that area, and went to school there for, for a short time. But then he said, no we have to, we have to evacuate, we have to leave. So, so he picked up the family and left all his assets, no time and just go. And so, so that was how that happened. And I went back after the Tiananmen incident, the year after, we went back to China to visit. And we still saw the remnants of the factory and saw the school where the orphanage was, and I remember going into the miào (廟), you know the...guard 有兩個菩薩…哼哈二將,你知道吧？[There were two Buddas, Heng and Ha ,two generals, you know?].

That is the two Chinese you know has an interesting brand of Buddhism is mixed with the Chinese culture, ancestor worship, you people who study Asian ...must understand that. Guarding the gate of the Jiu Lingsi [九靈寺] was two figure, two warriors like thing. Very-

AC: Like shen [神].

TS: Yeah. Very, you know, terrible figures. Scary figure. And I remember when I was a young kid, we had to go in and I just run, close my eyes, run in [laughs], run back. So this time we went back to Chongqing, and see the bǎo tǎ [寶塔]. You know the bǎotǎ [寶塔] is-there’s a pagoda, right. And the pagoda was still there in 2009, right, 2008, we came. 1998,

[AC:‘99]

1998, ‘99. And the bǎo tǎ [寶塔] was there. We had the, we had a guide, and took us back because we wanted to see, you know. And, and then when we left, and they, send us a newspaper that said, oh bǎo tǎ xian lingle [寶塔顯靈了]..you know , the pagoda came alive.You know pagoda-the history of the pagoda is I know some people say pagoda buried underneath where there is some mystic thing, right, [顯靈了]. So I ask,  who-how xian lingle [寶塔顯靈了]  ...Because pagoda, around the pagoda there was a halo. There was a halo. And then I read the newspaper, a clipping, said that they discover that.They never seen that before, the halo was created by the locust, huáng chóng [蝗蟲]. Locust. Yeah - I wish I had saved those things. In those days, I was so busy trying to, make a living, you know. Your husband must know how it goes [laughs].

AC: [laughs] So then so your education-but tell us about your educational path. You were all over the place, it sounds like.

TS: Yes. It was all over the place, hardly had any place that I could really study Chinese. And I said, Japanese were bombing, bombing, and we would be running to air shelters, in high school, so forth. But anyway in Hong Kong, there were two years, junior high school we did have a you know peaceful, peaceful time, and really study, in Chongqing, hardly. But my father did do one thing, he hired a tutor, a Chinese tutor, he believed in lao fa shu [老法書].You know lao fa [老法] meaning the old Chinese tradition. He admired the Confucius, Confucius philosophy, he’s always admirer of that. And he himself, even though he said did not have that much…He was educated in a Christian missionary school and oh that was interesting too, I’ll tell you about that one. And, then, so we didn’t have-I think we had three or four months of bei, daxue, daxue [背大學, 大學] is like Confucius has four books right

[AC: Sishu WǔJīng(四書五經) Classics.]

Yeah, yeah. Da xue [大學]-we had to memorize it, don’t care whether you know about this or not, and this doesn’t complete-you had to memorize this. So we memorize it, and before that there were liang ge xiao de shemo jing [two small something or other classics 兩個小的什麼經]. I don’t remember.

AC: San zi jing, keneng. [Maybe the Three Character Classic.三字經,可能]

TS: Yes, yes.

AC: That’s for children to start off.

TS: Yeah, yeah we had to memorize it, and then “ren zhi chuxing ben shan,”shi bu shiah? [“The origin of man is kind; his nature is compassionate,” isn’t that right?“人之初,性本善,”是不是啊?] A lot of philosophical difference. For instance, “ren. zhi chuxing ben shan ,xing ben...?”] [“The origin of man is kind;his nature is compassionate, origin of man?”“人之初,性本善,性本?” [laughs] but the best that was, that was interesting.

AC: What was the name of the high school in Hong Kong, do you remember?

TS: In Hong Kong,  it’s in-yeah I do remember that. The high school in Chongqing is Chong Wen xue xiao [重文學校] something like that, but anyway I didn’t have chance to really study, so but did have that little bit of exposure in tutor-in zhong wen [Chinese中文]thing. And when I went to Hong Kong, I went to Pei Ying, [培英] chūzhōng(初中), chūzhōng, ye you gao zhong de [ junior high, but it also has a senior high. 初中,也有高中的]. So I studied there chū zhōng liǎng nián [two years in junior high, 初中兩年] and it was a very good education. But in China you know, when

you study, you really have to study. And I remember studying chemistry over there. After I study chemistry over there, even though in here I had to repeat this chemistry in here, I thought I knew   everything. You know in chemistry. At one time, I thought I was going to go in medicine. [laughs]

AC: So then from Hong Kong, you came to Brazil, and then came to United States.

TS: Right.

AC: So you said you did not go to school in Brazil?

TS: No, it was a short time, did not go in Brazil. And after we acquire…because, we wanted to come to the United States to study. And so after we got our permanent resident status, we were able to have the American consul issue a student visa for us. Now we came in as a student, and then you know immigration law is two part. I tell you that because I practice immigration law for 20 years. I mean or there about. Okay. So one part is the consulate issuing you the visa, allow you to officially, you know, the attempt to enter United States. At the time you enter the United States, there’s what they call inspection before you’re formally admitted, during that period of inspection, they can then determine whether or not you’re bona fide according to visa or not. So that’s the second step, and there’s where they decided you are not bona fide, non immigrant. Still, we didn’t even know what, what is bona fide, or not bona fide. We didn’t even know okay. All we know we had a problem paper you know. So we went in on the other side, and hearing after hearing after hearing. Very interesting part, the hearing officer-when I start topractice law, they recognize me, I recognize them. It was so funny. They said, “oh let me go dig out your immigration papers here, what are you doing here.”[laughs]

Oh I, I gave them a hard time. I gave the immigration service, the immigration director a real hard time. I use to litigate cases after litigation. I would pull people from the airplane.They were about to be deported, some of them even on the airplane, uh on the airplane, the rule you heard of the writ of habeas corpus the American legal jurisdiction was proud of writ of corpus. And any person who are detained right has a right of applying for writ what they call. That is, you can write this on a toilet paper, and if you have chance – a way to have it -present it to a judge and say, “I have been detained. And I do not know the reason for the detention.” And according to the American jurisprudence, Anglo-American jurisprudence, the judge can then sign an order say, “bring forth this prisoner to a hearing, to determine  whether or not he is rightfully detained.” So that's what we call it. I don’t know how many writ I filed.

And how many people I took them off from the airplane [AC:Wow.] even in you know. So got to the point the immigration service in the New Yorkxsaid, “Oh this guy.” I would call the montheuh-to the

district director office and said that, “why are you doing this to us? ”Well, you know. Then they said you now there’s a process before you can go to the court, you had to ask the district director - application for stay on deportation, upon his denial then we can go to court, right. Now he would say, okay, you submit your application. And he won’t, won’t decide, until he has the prisoners. People ready to be deported - prepare on the airplane. Right. By the time you get to deport, the guy’s alreadyontheairplane,gone.Uh

sobecauseit’soutsidethejurisdictionofthecourt.Thecourthasjurisdictionwithintheterritoryofthe

UnitedStates.ButIwouldhavehadpeoplewenttoAlaska,broughtback.BeentoHawaii,broughtback.

Thenwhattheydidwas,theyavoidedallthat;theywentfromhere,toEurope,fromCanadatoflythem

over.

AC:Ohsoyou,soyoualreadyleftthecountry,you’renolonger-

TS:Yeahthey,theytooktheAtlanticrouteinsteadofthePacificroute.Anyway,itwassofunny.AndI

hadagoodtime.Irememberuh...butpeoplecouldn’tunderstand-wherethisyoungguyuhyouknowI

wasyoungthen,Iwasfightingleftandright,andhavingagoodtimebringpeoplein.[laughs]OnetimeI

haduh10,11or12uhpeoplewasworkinginlawandimmigrationserviceraidedthe,therestaurantand

gotthemall12together.Everyoneofthemhadmycardintheirpocket.TheyfiguredmaybeIcommitted

acrimein,in,inimportingthesepeoplein,right.Butthen,theyallfindoutthatthesepeoplewere-they,

they,from,theyallgotmybusinesscard.Sotheyknowwhentheyarehere,they’rearrested,theycall

TomSung.Tomwouldthengo-Iwouldthengotouhthe,the,the,thecallthebondsman.Andthen

bondsmanherewould,wouldputupabond.$2500wouldbailthemout.But,manytimesinthosedays,

theydon’tevenhavethe$2500ready,buttheyhaverelativestoputoutright?But,iftheirassociation

peoplecallme,Itrustedtheassociationperson,thenIwouldputmycreditwiththebailbondsman.So,

themomenttheyarrestedthe-theassociationpeoplegetnoticed,theycallme,Icallthebondsman,inthe

sameday.They’rereleased.[AC:Wow.]Sotherewasaninterestingbattleinthosedays,anduhandthen

uhwelltherearemanyotherthings.It’salsointeresting.

Uh,uhwe,weyouknowwhenallremediesfailed,wewouldaskforcongressionalhelptoissu-,to,to,to

issueaprivatebill.AndIrememberSenatorFong-Hawaiididissueafewfor-thesearepeoplewho

technicallyspeakingreallyarenotenti-entitledtostay,becausethey,theycomeinascrewman.

CrewmenareparoledintotheUnitedStates,notreallyadmittedinthatsense.Sotheycouldnotadjust

theirstatushere.UhbutIwouldthen-becausetheyhaveskill,ifthey’reachef-theyareneededhere,so

Iwouldthenusea,whatwecalled,sixthpreference,getthemallprepared,they’vebeenapproved,and

thensendthemouttoa,a-toEuropeancountry,likeGermany,orsomeconsulatetoissueavisatocome

backagain.Sotheinterruptionwasvery,veryshort.

AC:Sotakethisbacktowhenyoufirstarrivedintothecountry,andthengotoFlorida.[TS:Mmhm.]

Rightandthenyou-wereyouinFloridaforseveralyears?

TS:Nowhathappenedwasthis.Whenwecameovertothiscountry,andaftertheuh,afterwe,wewere

releasedfromthedetention,the,the,the...EllisIsland,andactuallytheyfindouttheyreallydidnot-they

couldnotdetainusanyway,becausemyfatherthenwasapplyingfortreatytrader,that’swhatthisbook

is.Treatytraderisaspecialstatusawardedto,awardedtoalienwhosecountry-Imean,hasatreatywith

theUnitedStates.Andthisparticularpersoncontributedsubstantiallyintermsofthetradewiththe

UnitedStates.DuringsecondWorldWar,thebristle,orhoghairwasconsideredasastrategicmaterial.

Thereasonforthatisbecauseuhhoghairareusedbythenaviestopaintboat-right,that’spaintbrushes.

Butthenyousaywhydon’ttheyusenylontopaintbrushes?But,ifyouexaminethehogbristleinthe

microscope,you’llfindthatthebristlehasasmallchannelgrowonthehair.Sothatchannelis-actslike

apen, you know the pen that you-like, like... so absorbed ink, so you don’t have the-the hair absorbs the paint.You don’t have to dip the brush into the paint brush so often, and you would then be able to paint much easier, that’s one reason.

Andthen,theyusedthebrushtocleangunbarrel,right.Whenyoufirethegun,thegunbarrel’shot.You

couldn’tusenylon.NylonwasthendiscoveredduringsecondWorldWar.Ifyouputnylonbrushinthe

hotbarrelwillcausethenylontocurl,anditwouldloseitseffect.Sobristlewasconsideredstrategic

material.AndmyfathersuppliedconsiderableamountofbristletotheUnitedStates.Hewasthen

qualifiedawardedastreatymerchant.Treatytrader,treatymerchant...treatytrader.Sohisfamilyallowed

to,tocomeinwithhim.Butanyway,hewouldthenapply.Sotheyfinallydecidetoreleaseus.And,and

probablytotheirregret.[laughs]

AC:HowdidyougotoFlorida?Whatwasthedecision?[TS:Okay,so,sothen-]

TS:WewentfromNewYorktogotoCaliforniato,to,to,to,to,hi-,to,toaparochialhighschoolto,to,

to,tostudyhighschoolthereforoneyear.MymotherthenwasinhereinNewYorkandshewas-fell

victimofcancer.Shehadovariancancer,thenwehadtocomeback.Andafterwecameback,mymother

passedawayin19-what‘53,somewherearoundthattime.‘53,‘54.Andthen,becausesomanyofusare

readytogotocollege,myfathersaid,wellit’sahugeexpense,andlet’sfindaplacethatyoucangoto

school,college.Andwe,wedidn’thave,wedidn’thavetimetothinkabout,whichgoodschooltogoto,

right?Wejustthinkaboutwhich-sohappened,itwasagoodschool.WewenttoFlorida,Gainesville,

Florida.Sothereweestablishourresidence.Heboughtaranch,cattleranch.That’swhereIbecomea

cowboy.For7years.

AC:For7years.Soyouwenttoschool,andyoualsoweretakingcareofyourranch?

TS:Yes,I,IwenttoschoolandIalsotookcareoftheranch.Becausemybrothersdidn’twanttodoit

[laughs].

AC:SoI,I-mindifIaskyouhowmanysiblingsyouhave?Haveonebrother,ortwobrothers?

TS:I,I,Ihavetwobrothers.Uhmyolderbrotheruhcamewithmeatthesametime.Myyoungerbrot-

nomyeldestbrothercamewithme.Thenmysecondbrotherstayedwithmymother,onthesecondtrip

came.Buthelateronjoined,joinedofcoursehehelped.MybrotherJimhedied,hepassedaway.My

olderbrother’sstillalive,stilllivinginGainesville.AndIhaveayoungerbrotherwhoismentally-not,

somewhatdeficienttheycallittoday.Somanytermstheycangivetothem,right?Somebodywhojust

didn’t-hedidmanagetopassthe8thgradeandIremembersuchahardtimetoteachhimA,B,C,D

[laughs].Butanyway,hepassedaway.Souhso,sowhen,when,whenwe’reinFlorida,myolderbrother

-oldestbrotherdidnotwanttoparticipate.Helikestosing,helikestohavealotoffunsoforth.That’s

fineyouknowhappierlife.AndIcanattesttothat.AndIwasdesignatedastheoneto..[laughs]

AC:Andhow,howbigwasit-itwasaranch,ithadcattleonit?

TS:Yes,yes.It’s12,12,1200acres.Liketwosquaremiles.Andwehadasmanyasover1000headof

cattle.Andthatwassomeexperience.Someexperience.

AC:AndwhatdegreedidyougetinFlorida?IsthisFloridaStateUniversity?

TS:TheUniversityofFlorida.[AC:OhGainesville.]Yep,inGainesville.FloridaStateisinTallahassee.

Yeah.AndUniversityofFloridalateron-Imeanitwasaland,landgrantcollegeofcourse.AndI

studiedbecausetheranch,Istudiedagriculturaleconomics,whichisaproduction,productioneconomics.

It’smicroeconomics.ThenafterIuhgotmybachelordegree,IgotmyMA,thenwenttothebusiness

schooluhfurthermystudyin finance and economics. I took all the courses  to qualify to go into PhD.  I

guess, butIdon't have all A’s I have B’s. Lots of B’s. Couldn’t get all A’s and to go into uh, to, to PhD program, you need uh more A’s and then B’s as you know.

C:Andyouwereworkingtoo.Butyouwereworkingtoo.

TS:That’sright.Butthat,that7yearsworkingonthecattlefarmissuchaninvaluableexperiencefor

me.Uhyoulearntounderstandthelimitation,uhasaperson.Youlearntoknowthatyour,your,your,

your,youraccomplishmentorwhateveryouwanttocallit,dependsuponnotjusthumanfactor,but

dependuponGod.Dependupon,zhongguorenjiang[Chinesewouldsay中國人講]Heaven.Right

[laughs].Souhohthere’ssomanyexperiencesonthefarm,Icanneverforget.Oneday,Isaidtowritea

storyaboutmyexperienceonthefarm,how-whatittaughtme.Peoplesay,“wellwewentthroughuh

Cultural,CulturalRevolution.”AndIsaiduhthat,thatwassuchahardtimeforthem.Isaid,“Idon’t

thinkyouhaveevergonethroughthehardtimeonthefarmthatIwentthrough.”Uh...youwanttohear

thestory,youdon’twanttohearthestory?

AC:We’dlovetohearthestory,yeah.[laughs]

TS:[laughs]Um,two,twothings.Uhonthefarm.Youknowonthefarm,itdependsonnature.Uhyou

knowtolive.Therearetwothingsthatthe-somewhatinteresting.WhenIwasarancheruhwhenIgot,

whenIgetonthefarm,Isawthecowboywhohadthreecowboyswererallyingupthecattleinthepen.

AndIsaid,geethatseemslikealotofworkmakingthecattletorunintothepenandit’skindoflikeyou

knownothumanelike.Isaid,whatareyoudoingtothesecattle?”Hesaid,well-uhthecowboy’svery

abruptandshort.We’re,we’repenningthecattleforTBtest.TheyhavetotesttoseeiftheyhaveTB.

Youputthecattleinthere,youputthemintheshoot,yousqueezetheshootandtheycouldn’tmove.And

thentheytakeatest.TBtest.Okay.AndIsaid,welldoyouhavetogothroughthat.Hesaid,welllisten,

ifyouwanttolearnhowtoraisecattle,youshouldgetonahorse,tellme.AndIwastheneighteenanda

half,somethinglikethat,andsaidgeethatwasachallenge.Youknow,tome.SoIwenttherenextday,

theywerepenningthecattle.Theygavemeahorse,soIgotonahorse.RememberI,I’msupposedtobe

theownersrepresentright[laughs].Igotonthehorse.Theywerethererunning,penningthecattle.They

didn’twantpaymeanyattention.Ifollowthemonahorse.Andyouknowhorsewhenthey,whenthey

runandsoforth,itbounces.Youhavetoknowhowtotaketheshock.Ifyoudon’ttaketheshock,you’re

bangingagainsttheseat.Likethis.Afterthethirdday,Icouldnotwalkdownthestairsstraight.Ihadto

walkdownthestairs,likethis,sideways.ButthenafterIrecoverIlearned.Ithenbecomeafull-fledged

cowboy.Icould,IcouldrideahorseIhadnoproblem.Theycouldnottellmeanything[laughs]Idon’t

know.

Yougetonahorse,peoplewouldgetonthehorse,makesurethesaddleis,isuhtightontheWestern

saddlenottheEnglishsaddle.Right,workingsaddle,withahorn.Youropethecattlesoforthlikethat,

right.Soyoumakesureandthenyouwouldsteponthestirrup-it’scalledstirrup,andthencross,right?

Butthecowboyswouldtakeholdonhornbyonehandandthenjumprighton.SoIlearnedtothat.Okay

youcanjump,Icandothat[laughs].Thatwasthosedays.Sothatwasoneinterestingexperience.Then

collateraltothatinthedaywhenIwasraisingcattle,therewerecalves.Whenthecalveswerebornthe

navelcord-areraw.Youknowstillblood,right?From,fromthething.There’sa-thereisaflyinthose

dayscalledscrewwormfly.Screwwormfly,aninterestingcharacteristic.Theywouldlaytheireggon

rawflesh.Therawflesh,would-theywouldthenhatch,becomeworms.Thewormwilleattherawflesh

andtheywoulddropoff.Andthenwhentheydropoff,whentheymaturetheygointo

another...metamorphosiswouldbecomefly.Theywouldthencontinuethatcyclethatway.Sothedutyof

thecowboyinthosedayswastocatchthecalfyouknow.Some calf may be already running 2, 3. Run the calf down, rope them down, tie their leg up. And then pour tar over their navel cord. That was a tough job, really tough job.

Andlook–amountofenergyyouwastein,intryingtocatchthecalf,anddothethingherenow.And

then,whatIwanttotellyouwasthattheUSDepartmentofAgriculture,theentomologydepartment

discoveredthatthesescrewwormflywillonlybreedonce.Becauseofthatcharacteristic,theythenbreed

thesefliesinthelaboratory,enmasse,inbigquantity.Butbombardthemwithradiationsotheyall

becomesterile.Andthentheyreleasethemeverytwosquaremiles,aboxoftheseflies.Andtheseflies

thengo,gomatewiththeotherflyandthenthescrewwormwaseradicatedintwoyears.Thatwassome

achievement.Science-I,Ipersonallywitnesshowwellthatworkedintwoyears,screwwormflieswas

eradicated.Wedidn’tcareaboutthediscontinuationofspecies[laughs].Thatwasafast-itwas

dangerous.Theysaid,ifscrewwormhadexisted,probablythroughsomekindofmu-,mutationduring

theCivilWar,itwouldhavebeenawful.Peoplewould,peoplewoulddie.

AC:SohowdidyougofromacattlefarminFloridatoNewYorkCity?

TS:ToNewYorkCity.Welluhwellifyoudon’tmind,I’lltellyouonesmallmoreincidentaboutthe

farmandI’lltellyouhowIgettoNewYorkCity.So,sothenuhinthewinter,uhweneedtoraisecattle

bygrowinglikeoatswecallitorwheat.Thattypeofthingsgrowinthewinter,right.Sothecattlecaneat

andgetfat,sotosay.So,soone,oneautumnwedecideto,toplant300acresofoats,thatwouldbethe

appropriatethingtodo.Istudied-makesurethetypeoffertilizer,theoatseed,andsoforth.Igotonthe

tractorand,andplowedthe,plowedtheland.Itwas105degreeheat.Andthenfinallywesowtheseeds,

coveritup.Andlowandbeholdtherewasnorain.InFlorida,youneverheardofnorain.Alltheway,

everydaywouldnotgerminate.Iwouldlookingtothesky,hopingthatitwouldrain.Itwasjustso

frustrating.Youweresoanxious,youweresoworried.Andyouspendsomuchtimeandmoneybuilding

youknowfertilizerandthings.Itwasjusttotallyexhaustinginthatkindofemotionalexhaustion-never

experienced.

AndfinallyinFebruary,theraincameinjustasmalllittlebitsotheentireseasonwasadevastation...

withcattle.So,Isaid,thatexperiencetaughtme-Ithenthought,thinkback,whenIcametoNewYork.

Why?WhyIcametoNewYork-mymotherdied,myfatherdecidedtogetremarry.Thatgiveusarelief,

wedon’thavetheresponsibilityoftakingcareofourparents,right.Myfathergotmarriedsohe,hewas

inCaliforniamoreoftenthaninFlorida.SoI,Idecidedthatitwastimetoputthefarmintosoilbank.Soil

bankisaprogrambygovernmenttotaketheproductivelandfromtheproductionandplantintotrees.

Andtreeswouldthenwasverymuchneededforthepulp,fencepost,andthelightpole,thingslikethat.

Pinetrees,right.Soweputallthelandintotrees.Plantintotrees.Andthen,Ithought,thatwas

accomplished.Andtherewasreturn-thegovernmentgaveyousubsidy,notonlyintermsofplanning,

butalsotheyrentedyourland,inasense,for12years.Afterthe12thyear,you’reonyourown,because

thetreeisbigenoughnow,sothatyoudon’thaveto-you’reableto,ifyouwantedtogetincome,you

couldgetsomeincome,carryyouthrough.Oryoucouldjustletitgrowfor20years,andthenharvestthe

treeforfencepostsoforth.SothenIleft,camebacktoNewYork.Myfatherwasagainstit.Hesaid,well

whydon’tyoustayinFlorida.Youwenttoschool,yougotyourMA-yougotograduateschoolstudy

morefor,for,foruhforfinanceandsoforth.I,I,Isawthatmakinglivingonfarmisjustnotthefuture,

verydifficult.Youknow,youhavetohavebig,bigoperationtomakethefarmgrow.

SoIcametoFlor-uhNewYork,andthenthat’showIstartedworking.Yousawonmyresume.Firstjob

waswithGeneralTelephoneandIbecomefirst-theirfirsteconomicanalyst,GeneralTelephoneof

coursebecomeVerizonlateron.AndIhelpedthemdevelopacoupleofimportantthings.Uh...Ifound

thatthetelephonegains-wehad-Ihadalotofstatisticsofwhattheyproduced,butnobodyanalyzedit.

SoIfoundthere’spattern,typicalpatterntothetelephonegrowth.Uhand,and,and,andthatpattern

conformstothebusinesscycle.It’sacoin-,it’sacoincidenceindicator.Inotherwords,whenthebusiness

cycleisup,thetelephonegainisup,the,thebusinessgoesdown,thetelephonegaingoesdown.So with

thatinformation,thenyoucanpredictifthetoolthatyoucanpredictbusinesscycle,youcanpredictthe

telephone growth. And with those information, you can then appropriately predict uh or plan your, your, yourbudgetforplan,for-youknowtobuildtheadditionalequipmentandplan.Sothatwasanimportant

informationforthetelephonethosedays.

AC:AndthenIalsounderstandthatyouwenttonightschoolto,tostudylaw.

TS:Yes,thenIwenttonightschoolbecauseuhwhenIcameoverhere,mypurposewastrytogotonight

school.To,thenIdecidedthat-youknowImean,IcouldhavetriedtogotoNYUtostudymore,butI

don’t’-Igotallthecoursesanywayinthefinancing.Ievenaccounting-Ilackonecourseinaccounting,

that’sauditingtobecomeaccountant.SoIsaidtomyself,welluh...nouselet’strytostudyforPhD.And

theywon’twantmeforPhDanywaybecauseuhyouknowmygradesareallA,ImeanB’s.Idohave

someA’s,notthatmanyA’s.ButmostlyB.[laughs]Idon't’thinkIhaveanyC’sthough.Butanyway,

andsoIdecidedtogotolawschool.AndgoingtolawschoolwasanexpensivepropositioninColumbia

LawSchoolIdon’t-theydon’thaveanightschoolprogram.St.John’shasanightschoolprogram.

BrooklynLawSchoolhadnightschoolprogramsoIwentatnight,insteadof3years,4years.Andthat

wasreally,reallytough.Outof85peoplethatwentin,onlyabout30,35peoplegraduated.And,andItell

youanduhit,itwassotiringthatIsaid…andIhadaveryresponsiblejob,

Iwentinasa-aftertheeconomicanalyst,financialanalysttoFordforshorttime,inDearborn,toMcCall

CorporationandIwrotesomepaper,andtoldthemwhytheylostmoneyintheStanfordcaperand

everybodypraisemeupanddown-thecontroller.[laughs]ThenshortlyIgotanoticefromthe…that

yourjobisbeingeliminated.WhyIfoundoutbecausemypapercriticizedthecommercialprinting

division,thevicepresidentgetsomadatme-formy.That’sworkingforsomebodyelse,that’sthe

problem.Sothen,thatwasgoodthing,soIwenttoMcCall,applyforfinancialanalystposition,through

theheadhunters,right,inthosedays,employmentagency.Andtheuhthefinancialanalysisdepartment,

themanagersaysohitsoundsgoodwe’dliketohireyou,andthenIdon’thearfromhimthenallofa

sudden,saidthevicepresidentoffinancewouldliketoseeyou.IsaidokaysoIwenttosee,seehimand

hesaid,“listenuhIknowyou’recominghereapplyforasfinancialanalyst,”Iforgottheguys’name,

manager,buthesaid,“butI’dlikeyoutobemyassistant.”Hesaid“areyousureeverythingyousaidon

theresume?”“Yeah,suregivemethepapers.”“Bemyassistant,what’sthesalaryyoulike?Don’ttellme

sky'sthelimit”[laughs].YouknowChineseverymodest.Ishouldhavebeen-shouldhaveaskedforthe

sky[laughs]butIaskfordoublethesalary,somewherearound$300.Butthatwasagoodsalary.

SoIbecomehisassistantandwhilegoingtolawschoolandthatwastheimportantjobbecauseallthe

subsidiarycontrollersreportsoforth,Ihadtoreview,Icriticize.Andtheydon’tprobablylikemevery

much[laughs]I,I,I...Idon’thavetherealauthority,butIwastherecriticizing[laughs].So,soJim

Brennan,thevicepresident,sofinallyafterayearorsohesaid“TomI’mgoingtoleavenowthe

company,butIwanttoputyouinagoodposition,”soIcouldhavefollowedthecorporaterouteI

suppose,route.AndIsaidJim,“whatisthispositionthatyouhaveforme?”HesaidwelltheMacmillan

Bookcompany,whichisalargebookcompanyright.Inthosedays,thelargestbookcompany.Idon’t

knowtodaywhattheyare,andsaidthattheirmanagerofthatdepartmenthas-whatisit,16financial

analystsandyoucouldbethemanagerthere,andIwas27,26,26,27.SoIsaid,JimIthoughtaboutit,I

saidthankyouIsaidI,Ijustaboutfinishingmylawschool,Isomuchwantedtotryit,topracticelaw.I

saidifIdon’tdoitinoneyear,IsaidI’llcomebacktothefinancialfield.Sothat’showIstartedmylaw

practice.

AC:AndthenyouhungupyourshinglesinimmigrationlawinChinatown?

TS:NoIdidn’t.SowhatIdidwasIwenttoalawfirmwhichmyuhfamilyhadarelationship,theguy

whowrotethisuhapplyformyfather.LeonFinleyIwenttoseehimtogetsomeadvice,youknowI

wouldthen,ofcoursemakinggoodsalarythen.IcallhimUncleLeon,Isaidlisten,I’muhthinkingabout

starting to practice law. He said, “oh you could come practice with me.” So that was then the firm was calledFinleyandGoreanduhIsaid,wellwhatwillbesalary.HesaidasaclerkIonlycangiveyou$75a

week.$75aweek.Imade4,5,6timesmorethanthat.Isaid,wellI’lltellyouwhat.Justputmynameon

yourletterhead.Iwilltrytobringinthecases.IfIcouldnothandlethecases,youcanhandlethem,

alright.Yourfirmcanhandlethem.Butletmehavemynameonyourletterhead.

TS:--doyouhaveanofficespaceforme?I’dliketo,you,know,sitthere.”Therewereaboutfive,six

Jewishlawyers.Thejokewas,“Tomyou’rein—”‘Finney’isactually‘Finkelstein’hechangedhisname.

“YournameshouldbechangedtoShapiro.”[laughs]SoafterIstayedthereforaboutthreemonthsorso,

IsawtheselawyersandhowtheydoitandI’vedonealotofthesethingshere,contracts,seeingsomuch

ofit.SoI—IdecidedthenIwouldgotoChinatowntoserve—toseeifI—remember,Iwannahaveone

yeartime.[AC:Yes.]Isaid,IwillgotoChinatown.LetmeseewhatIcandoto,uh,to-toservethe

peoplethere.SowhenIwenttoChinatown,whenIgotoChinatown,I’mgoingtodosomethingforthe

community,right,forthemtofeelthatyouarehere,reallycontributingtothecommunity.AndIamnot

Cantonese,andIamnotTaishanese,andyou-youreally,inNewYork,anyway,youhavetobeTaishan.

Taishan.Taishanisasmalllittletown—Imean—in,in,inCanton.Andthere,theoriginalrailroad

builders,that’show—theycomein,remembertheChineseexclusionact?NoChinesecancomein,

Taishaneseweredominant,ifyoudon’tspeakTaishanese,youdon’tspeakChinese.“Tangrenwusick

gangTanghua”[“ChinesepeopledonotknowhowtospeakChinese”唐人唔系講唐話]Right?That—

that’swhatthey’requoting.So.IwenttotheChinatown,Isaid,“I’mgoingtodosomethingforthe

community.”SofirstthingIdidwastofindoutwhatdidtheyneed?Sotheylack—hardlyanyChinese

lawyer,thereweretwoChineselawyer.Onegoodlawyer,BenjaminGim,hehadagoodbackground—

lawyer.AnotheroneisNormanKee.NormanKee’sfatherusedtosellpaper,paperson—paperfather,

youknow,Imean,brokeringthisthinghere.Andyouknowthat’swhattheChineseConfessionActcame

in.So—soI-I-Isay,well,okay,youguyshaveallthegoodcases,nocasesforme.SowhatamIgonna

do?SoIcoulddotwothings.Ifindmyselfalittleplacein-in,onPellStreet.16PellStreet.Secondfloor.

Inthemorning,whenyougototheofficeyouhadtojumpoverthegarbagebag.That’sliterallytrue.

That’showtoughitwas.Jumpoverthegarbagebag.Andtherewerethreeinsuranceguyswerethereand

Isaid,well,letmeshareyourofficewithyou?Andhesaidokayyoucantaketherearbackoffice.SoI

tookthebackoffice,dark,youknow,hardlyanylightsandsorts.SoItookthebackoffice,setupatable,

that’sthat.Andhangupmyshingleasalawyeroverthere,andtheysincestartreferringcasestome,

difficultcases,okay,nobodywant.SoItookthefirstcasethatIhad,itwasadifficultChineseconfession

case.Themanwashere,Willy,wecallhimWilly—washereforhowmany,20,30yearsandcomingasa

paperson,andhiswifewasinChina,couldneverbringhiswifehere,paper’snotclear.SoIgothim

straightenedoutandbroughthiswifeintothecountry.AndthenIstarttowriteinformationabout

immigrationlawandsonobodywasdoingthisservice.SotheChinesejournal—newspaperwelcomedit.

SoI—IeverythingIwroteaboutimmigrationlawwasalwayspublished.SoIbecomewellknown.In

thosedaysyoucannotadvertise.Lawyerscouldnotadvertise—cannonethicspreventslawyerfrom

advertising.So.Butthroughthat,mynamegotwellknown,sopeoplecomeinforsmallthings,forbig

things,youknow,IrememberatimewhenVerawasborn,weputherinacrib,right,andtheywould

comeinfornotariesthen,right,soInotarize,“Oh,no,no,nothing…charge”andtheywouldleaveand

throwonedollar,twodollars,fivedollars,whattheywere—I,I,Willycameinandwesawafivedollar

billonthecrib,right[laughs]sowe—fivedollars—wewenttoChinatownandhadthebestmeal.That

wassogood.Inthosedaysthe—the,theythinkof“longli.”[龍利]“Longli”isfluke.

AC: Yeah,“longlei.”

TS: Yeah,“longlei.”

AC:Yeah.

TS:Yeah.Fluke.Anditwasabiglongli;wehadsuchagoodtimewiththefivedollars,andthat—in

thosedays—thefivedollarisbetterthanafivehundreddollartoday’smeal[laughs].Sothatwas

interestingfield.But,butanyway—

AC:ButyoualsobecamechairmanoftheBenevolentAssociation?

TS:NoI,noIdidnot.IwantedtomakesurethatIwouldnotbecalleduptobecriticized—peopleinthe

community,Ilearned,Ilearnedthat—howtodealwiththecommunityprettywell,Imean,inthatsense.

Uh,ifyou—ifthere’sanytintof,thatyouaredoingthisformoneythenyourreputationis,youknow—

thegroupthatwillattackyouwillsayyou—you—you—youaremakingmoneyoutofthings,right.SoI

makesurethattherearenomoneyinvolved.Everythingprobono.Sowhathappenedwasthis.WhenI

cameinIfoundout“中华公所”ChineseBenevolentAssociationhasChineseschool.TheChinese

school—theprincipal,Mr.LiangwenttoPeiying[培英].Hesawmeinhis—youknow—hesaid“you’re

fromthePeiyingzhonghho[培英中學].”InthosedaystheycalledtheNewYorkPublicSchool

Unincorporated.Totally,youknow,informal,right?Sohesaid,“Mr.Sung,couldyouhelpuswiththe—

withtheformallygetusthecharter?Incorporateus,soforth?SoIdidbothofthose—IthinkIspent

approximatelyeightweeksworkingforthecommunitytotallyprobono.WhatIdidwasorganizethis

schoolthingandgotthemapermanentcharterfromtheDepartmentofEducation.Todothattheyrequire

youtoreallygothroughthedetailandanythingandwhenyou’reyoungyoucandothesethings.And

thenIwantedtogetthemthetaxexemption.Thatwasabitofachallenge.AndIgotthemtodothat.And

thenwhatelsetodo.中华公所.中华公所hasexistedlongbefore,youknow,andtheirrecordwasso

messy.Couldnotpossiblygivethemthetaxexemptionsstatus.SoIsaid,wellhowaboutthebuilding

thattheyoccupythatproducetheincometheycalltheChineseCommunityCenter?Isaidletmetakethe

ChineseCommunityCenterandmakethemataxexemptorganization.That’swheretheschoolis.SoI

gotthemtaxexemptionforthat.And—andthen,soIbecometheattorneyrepresentativefor中华公所

andthenalltheother—becauseimmigrationlaw—alltheotherfamilyassociations—YookYing(育英),

TaiPun(大鵬),and—TsungTsin(崇正)alltheseassociationsaskmetobecomethe—theattorneysoI

wasattorneyforallthe—practicallyallofthem.

Inthosedays,Chinatownwassmall.YouwalkdowntheChinatown,theyallrecognizesyounowbecause

youdidsomuchforthecommunity,right?Thatwasagoodfeeling.[laughs]SoIwillneverthenlackof

casestodo.SoIwassobusy.AndthenImovedout,movedto-to-totheChathamGreen,217ParkRow.

Establishedmyofficerightnextto.Thenagain,Iwassobusy.Iwassotiredworkingasalawyerinthe—

IsaidIcanwork24hoursaday,7daysaweek,peoplewillstillbewaitingonlineforme.SoIsaiddid

you—I—whatIsawwasIwastakingeverybody’sproblemasmyproblem[laughs]workingforsolving

theirproblems.SoIsaidgee,youknow,Ireallyhaveto,youknow,thinkingabouthowIshouldsettle

myself.And—butthenIsaid,that’snotright.That’safter20years,andasalawyer,yousortofburnout;

you’retiedtoadeskallthetimedoing6daysaweekdoingthislawpractice.AndIevenhadtheMafia,

youwouldn’tbelieveit,thereputationwassomuchsobecauseIwasbringinginpeopleleftandright

from—youknow—fromimmigrationserviceso[laughs]soupsetwithme.SoonedayIhadaMafiaguy

cametomesay,“Youknow,Mr.Sungyouhaveagoodreputation,weknowyoucandoit.Andwehave

a,wehavea…guythatwejustwanttokeephimhereforthreeweeks,orfourweekssothathehastime

withhisfamilybeforeheisdeported.Weknowyoucandoit.Andwewillpayyou$5,000feefordoing

that.”Thatwasahugefeethen,right?Iwassotemptedtodoit!AndIsaidtomyself,gee,shouldIdoit?

ShouldIdoit?Onceyougetintothis,nexttimetheywillaskyouagain;nexttimetheywillaskyou

again.Andifyoudon’tdoityou—youknow—youmayendupinagarbagecan. And you don’t want

FBI following you all the time. And I want to do good for the community, and I—I was really trying to help them with the law enforcement, in the police department and so forth. So I decided not to take it. So

thatwas,thatwasthat episode. So.

AC:Sothenyoudecidedtoleaveandwalkawayfromimmigrationlawbusinessandbecomeabanker.

Howdidthathappen?

TS:No,yeah—IreallyneverthoughtIwoulddothat.Theytoldmethattheyneedto—theyneedbanks,

isverymuchneeded.InthiscommunitytherewasnobankthatwascontrolledbytheChinese

community.AndthegovernmentinthosedayswantedyoutoestablishasavingsbankinChinatown—in

theChinesecommunitybecauseitrepresentspeople.Theywantto—theywanttoberepresented.Federal

HomeLoanBankwasthenabankthatsupervisedus,savingsbank,federal.Thestatesavingsbank.State

savingsbanktoowantsyoutodothat—wantedyoutodothat.ButIsayifIhavetostayImightaswell

dofederalsotheyhelpedme—leaned[over]backwardstohelpmegetthecharter.SoIgotthecharter.I

couldn’traisethefunds!Youknow,IknowAlbertthenanditwouldhavebeeneasy.Theywanted—they

wanted,theywantedtwomilliondollars,notcapital.Theycalleditsubordinateddeposit.Whichmeans

you’dbethelastonetotakeoutyourdeposit,right?Thatshouldbeeasy,right?Icouldnotdothat.

Everybodysaysbanksdoesnotmakemoney.TheChinese,youknow,Ihatetosaythis,arenotunitedin

thatrespect.Theydon’twanttopart…theirthings,soIdidn’t—Icouldn’traiseit.Thenthelaw

changed—theyconvertedthethingintoastockcorporation.Sowewerethefirstonetocameinunder

lawin1984[inaudible]tobeissuedacharterforstockcorporation.Toconvertfromamutual—beforethe

bankwasopen—intoastock.Soifwecouldgettwomilliondollarstock.ThenItriedtogetastockwith

alittlebitbetter,peoplewerewillingtoinvest,butevenso,Igotafewpeopleinvestverysmallmoney,

likemaybeabout300somethousanddollars,therestofwhichIaskedmyfamilytoputup,togetbank

open.AndIthoughtifthebankopenedthat’dbefine;myfatheralwayswantedtoopenabank.Hewas

associatedwithShanghaiCommercialBank.Sowealwaysthoughtmaybe,youknow,thebankisthe

rightthingtodo,becausethatcouldreallyhelpalotofpeople,notjustonepersonatthetime.Sowe

openedthebank.Two—threethingsarerequiredinabank.Oneisthelocation;oneiscapitalwhichwe

gotthetwomilliondollars.ItwasonlytwomilliondollarsinNewYorkCity—todayyoucouldnotdoit

for15milliondollarstoopenacharter,right.Sothen—thethirdoneisqualified,experiencedpersonnel.

SoIwashelpingMr.LiangopenuptheUnitedOrientBank.ThatwasthebankthatIhelpedformbefore

thisbank.UnitedOrientBankformcouldnotraisethecapitaleither.Theygottwomilliondollars;the

staterequiredfivemillion.Theylackedthreemillion,wecouldn’traiseit,andfinallya…aguybythe

nameofEddie..EddieChen(?)(?).EddieChenwastheformerdeputyinspectorfromHongKongwho

wasthe,youknow,soughtbytheHongKonggovernmentfor,forcrime.Soheknewinadvanceheleft,

right?He’swdell-informedandthenhecontrolledthe—hewentandjoinedtheOnLeongbecausethe

moneythathehadandsoforth,hethenbecomeheadofOnLeong.Thenhesaidthat“Iwillputuptwo

milliondollar,matchingthetwomilliondollaryouraised”andsosoUnitedOrientBankwas—K.C.

wantedtoopenthebank.ThenIsaidtoK.C.no,youknow,mypositionasalawyer,Icouldnotbe

associatedwithpeoplewhowasnotclean.AndeventhoughIspent,Idon’tknow,intermsoflegalfees,

itmustbe$150,000worthofmy,inthosedays,timeindoingthat,togettheUnitedOrientBankformed.

SoIsaid,K.C.ifyouwanttodoit,it’syourbusiness.Iunderstand;youwaitedforalongtime,andI,you

know,yourpersonalfeeling,butIjustcouldn’tdothiswithyou.Sotwoweeksaftertheopen,Iresigned.

EverybodysaidIwasveryfoolish,youshouldhavegotyourmoneyback,oranyway,youknow,like

fromfees,thingslikethat.Isaidno,no,no,Iwanttokeepclean.Sothat’showIformedtheAbacus

Bank.

AC:Wow.That’samazing.So—[overlapping]

TS:AndUnitedOrientBanktwoorthreeyearslater,ofcourse,hadarunbecauseEddieChansaidhe

wastheheadofthebank,andheadoftheRepublicanparty.And Mrs.Chen—General Chennault’s wife

said, said I have always been the head of the, the Republican for the Chinese, and how could you be then called…?TheystarttoinvestigatewhatkindofguythisEddieChanisandfindoutallthesecriminal

background.Hewalksaroundwiththebaobiao[bodyguar]保镖,youknow,baobiao[保镖]?

AC:Bodyguard.

TS:[overlapping]Bodyguard!Withagun.Ihadonemeetingwithhim.HewantstotalktomeandIwant

totalktohim.Isaid,boy,thisguyhere,notme—ifhesaysapprovetheloan[and]Isaysno,whatamI

gonnadowithaguylikethat?Right?Yeah,Ican’tcompromisewithhimlikethatinprinciple,soIjust

walkedaway.So,so—Mrs.ChennaultthenreportedtofriendsintheSenate,Senateconductan

investigation,findoutwhatthebackgroundof—ofEddieChan.EddieChan—theycausebankrupt.So

everybodysaysTom,youweresmart.Twoyearsearlyyouleft.AndEddieChanisthebook,“TheYear

oftheDragon.[AC:Oh?]Itwaswrittenabouthim,itwas“TheYearoftheDragon”hewasareal

criminal.Realcriminal.

AC:AndwastheAbacusopenatthislocation?Thiswastheir—[overlapping]

TS:Abacus—then,thenAbacuswasokay—I,IonthesideIwasdoingarealestatebusiness.When

you’reyoung,youknow,you’reambitious;youdoallthethings.Never—nothingfazesyou;itseemslike

everythingyoudoyou’resuccessful,right?Now,everythingyoudoisablock[laughs].ButsoIowna

lotofrealestate,yeah.Itstartedoff—thefirstrealestate,ohitwasaninterestingstory.Youneverhave

timetohearallthose.Withnothing.

AC:Wellwe—we,onestory,wehavetime.Youcanmaybeshareonestory[overlapping]

TS:Youwanna?[overlapping]

AC:Yes!

TS:Yeahonestory.Well,asIwaspracticinglaw,Ibefriendedasecondmortgage—aguywholendsout

asecondmortgage—helendsoutmoneyasasecondmortgage.Sofirstmortgagefromthebank,they

maybeneededmoremoneyorsomebody,thenhewouldcomeinandgetalittlehigherinterestisthe

secondmortgagehegot.Alright?BenMallamudistheguy,youtairen[猶,猶太人],[Jewishperson].SoI

befriendedwithhim.Helikedme.One—onegoodthingthough,Ialways,whenIwasyoung,Ialways

hadtherenyuanhao[Goodpeoplerelations,人緣好],Ialwayshadpeoplethatlikeme,youknow.The

teacherlikesme.ThereasonIwasabletoestablishmyselfinhere,notbeingaCantonese,wasalsothe,

because,whenIwas18whenIwasinNewYorkatthattime,IwenttoChinatown,IcametoChinatown,

to-tobaishifu[seekamentor/master拜師傅].

AC:Oh.

TS:Youknow?Youknow?Zhongwen,baishifu[Chinese-seekamentor/master“中文：拜師傅”].

AC: Right.

TS: Yeah,gongfu-功夫.

AC: Oh,夫，功夫,you were learning Gong Fu [Kung Fu]?

TS: Yeah, Gong Fu.

AC:Oh,okay.

TS:Gongfu[功夫],baishifu[拜师傅].IcametoChinatown,IsaidIwanttolearnGongFu,whoshouldI

dotolearnGongFu?Hesaid,ohGongFumaster,MasterWang,youshouldgotoseehim.IsawMaster

Wang,WongMoonToy(黃文采),andhebecamegoodfriendsofmine.Hedoesn’twanttochargeme—

hebecomes,hetrustedmeandtaughtmeeverythingthatheknew.WellIhadsuchcompactedtime

beforeIgotoFloridathatwasduringthehigh—itwas,Ijustfinishedhighschoolatthattime.Three

months,(inaudible).Andheiswellknown.HisteacherwasWangFeihong.WangFeihong[overlapping]

AC:YeahIrememberthat—[overlapping]

TS:WangFeihong(黃飛鴻)is—

AC:Histeacher?

TS:Yeah,histeacher.

AC:Okay.Wang—Fei—Hong.

TS:WangFeihong.AndhesayshealsolearnedfromHouYuanjia

AC:Hou...

TS:HouYuanjia.

AC:[overlapping]Yuan.Thesearetheteachersofyourmaster?[overlapping]OfyourGongFu--

TS:Yeah—yeah,

AC:Your师傅—

TS:Yeah,theotherWangWencai.

AC:AndhowdoyouspellWangWencai?

TS:Wang,Wang,WangWen—WangWencai.

AC:Okay,W-E-N,tai?

TS:Yeah,yeahcai.

AC:T-A-I?

TS:Yeah—[overlapping]

AC: Okay.

TS: 他是 f-f-f-“fujiao pai” [He is“tiger-pawstyle.]

AC:Fujiaopai?

TS:Long—fujiao—“tigerpaw”[overlapping]

AC:Ohhokay.

TS:“Tigerpaw.”

AC:“Hujiaopai”[虎腳派]

TS:Youcanfindout.

AC:Okay.

TS:So,WangWencai,soafterIleft,helikesmesomuch;I’mcallingitrenyuan[peoplerelationship,人

緣],hesaid,hesaid,“Ohtheotherpeoplethatarelearning,”hesaid,“Youpeoplehavetoremember,

youhaveashixiong[elderbrother師兄]inFlorida”

AC:Okay.

TS:Okay.“HisnameisXunKaixing[孫啟誠]youknow,so.SowhenIcameback10yearslaterto

Chinatowntopractice,hedied.Buthisdisciplescameoverto—saidtome,“Oh,baiwo[payrespectto

me].”Woshi,woshi,shibo.[Iam,Iam,elderbrother.我是，我是,師伯].

AC:Oh,right.[TSlaughs]Becausenowyou’remore[overlapping]senior

TS:[overlapping]I’melevatednow![laughs]I’mshibo—so,inthesense,Ihaveundergroundsupport

from,fromnotbeingaCantonese.ButIhavethesupportof…undergroundsupport[laughs].

AC:That’samazing.

TS:Isn’tthatfunny?

AC:Yeah.

TS:Butanyway,we’retalkingabout…

AC:Thelocationofthebank,right?

TS:Yeah.

AC:Therealestate.

TS:Thelocation—soIhadthelocationin,inonMarketStreet.Isaid—Iheldupthischarterfortwo

years,whenitopened,theyregularlycallme,theysaid,“Tom,youknowyouhadthecharterforalong

time,ifyoudon’topen,we’regonnahavetowithdrawthecharterfromyou.”SoIsaid,“Okay.Ididn’t

findtherightlocationbutI’llopenituponMarketStreet.”Youhadtobeagroundlocation,sothey

acceptedthat.Anditwasalotofinterestingstoryaboutthebanktoo--

AC: It had to be a ground location? [overlapping]

AC:Fujiaopai?

TS:Long—fujiao—“tigerpaw”[overlapping]

AC:Ohhokay.

TS:“Tigerpaw.”

AC:“Hujiaopai”[虎腳派]

TS:Youcanfindout.

AC:Okay.

TS:So,WangWencai,soafterIleft,helikesmesomuch;I’mcallingitrenyuan[peoplerelationship,人

緣],hesaid,hesaid,“Ohtheotherpeoplethatarelearning,”hesaid,“Youpeoplehavetoremember,

youhaveashixiong[elderbrother師兄]inFlorida”

AC:Okay.

TS:Okay.“HisnameisXunKaixing[孫啟誠]youknow,so.SowhenIcameback10yearslaterto

Chinatowntopractice,hedied.Buthisdisciplescameoverto—saidtome,“Oh,baiwo[payrespectto

me].”Woshi,woshi,shibo.[Iam,Iam,elderbrother.我是，我是,師伯].

AC:Oh,right.[TSlaughs]Becausenowyou’remore[overlapping]senior

TS:[overlapping]I’melevatednow![laughs]I’mshibo—so,inthesense,Ihaveundergroundsupport

from,fromnotbeingaCantonese.ButIhavethesupportof…undergroundsupport[laughs].

AC:That’samazing.

TS:Isn’tthatfunny?

AC:Yeah.

TS:Butanyway,we’retalkingabout…

AC:Thelocationofthebank,right?

TS:Yeah.

AC:Therealestate.

TS:Thelocation—soIhadthelocationin,inonMarketStreet.Isaid—Iheldupthischarterfortwo

years,whenitopened,theyregularlycallme,theysaid,“Tom,youknowyouhadthecharterforalong

time,ifyoudon’topen,we’regonnahavetowithdrawthecharterfromyou.”SoIsaid,“Okay.Ididn’t

findtherightlocationbutI’llopenituponMarketStreet.”Youhadtobeagroundlocation,sothey

acceptedthat.Anditwasalotofinterestingstoryaboutthebanktoo--

AC:Ithadtobeagroundlocation?[overlapping]

S:Ithadtobethegroundfloor.

AC:Oh,okay.

TS:Thegroundfloor.SoweopenedonMarketStreet.MarketStreetatthattimeisanarrowstreetdown

here,right?Now,itbecomepopularbecausetheFujian-esethinghere.Andwehad—soIopenedup

there.Whilewewerelookingforthisplacehere,and—in…in…Bowery,weboughtthebuildingin

Bowery,andthenconstructedbuildinginBowery.InMarketStreetwehadarobbery,andthat’s,that’s

[laughs]somanyinteresting—thefirsttimetherobbercameandtheyflippedoverthebulletbarrier,we

werejuststarted.Wedon’thavethemoneytoreallybuildanicebarrierandIhadtheconstructioncrew

andeverything.Iputupthe,youknow—abank-likeplace,sotheyflippeditover,grabbedthebagfor

whereyoutaketogivethearmoredtruck,togivetheFederalReserve,right?Andtheytookitaway,and

theycallme,“Mr.Sung!”Isaid,“Whatisit?”“WehavearobberyinMarketStreet.”YouknowIwas

workinginherethen.Idon’tevenrememberwhenweopenedtheplaceup.Isaid,“Well,howmuch

moneydidtheytake?”Youknow,ofcourseweweren’tsure,Ijustwantedtomakesureitwaswithinthe

insuranceamount[laughs].“Yousee,well,theytooknothing.Theygrabbedthetwoemptybags.”

[laughter]Oh,Isaid,“Ohthat’sfunny.Isaid.Well,okay,justbeware,okay.”SoIwasbusytryingtodo

otherthings.Threeweekslater,mustbethesamegroupcame.Thistimeit’sjustlikeinthemovie.Two

guyscamewitha,withahood—withamachinegun,gotinthefrontofthebank;twoflippedin,tookthe

moneythat’sinthebag,300somethousanddollars,andfled—andpeoplepassedby,theythoughtthey

weredoingamoviescene.真的！[really!]Youknow,isn’tthatamazing?Youtalkaboutthesethings

here,youactuallygothroughthat.It’sareally,really…funny.It’sfunny.

AC:Sohowmanyyearsdidyou—Abacushasbeenopen…20?[overlapping]

TS:Uh…Abacusopensince1984.

AC:Ohwow.Sonow30years.

TS:30somethingyears.Yeah.30...34years.Yeah.

AC:You’vehadanamazingcareer.Everythingyou’vedone.

TS:Everything—thisBoweryhastwobuildings,6and8[AC:Yeah.]Okay?SoIthought,youknow,

thatwasmy,inyourpeakofyourcareerright,youthinkthereisnothing—nothingyoucannot

accomplish,youknow.Everythingyoutouchyoualwaysgetdone.Sowesay,we’regonnahavetruck—

itwastwo…oldbuilding.Onepartofwhichisadrugstore—oldChinesedrugstore.Infactthe

Chinatownmuseumhaspartofthethings,inthemuseumthere.Wegavetothemwhattheywanted.So,

soonesidehasarestaurant,hasalease.Theleasedidnotexpire,wecouldn’tgetthemout.Isaid,“okay.

ButI’vegotaconstructivespothere.”Sowestarttoconstruct,andIhiredaguywhoistheheadofthe

citydemolitiondepartment,engineer.Heretired.SamRoberts.Thatguyshouldbetotallyknowledgeable

ofabuilding,correct?Youcouldnot,youcouldnothaveanybodybetterheadofthebuildingdepartment,

chiefengineerandallthatstuff.So.Wedig.Onthissidehere,ontheeighthBoweryside,therestaurant,

hasnobasement.Small.Yeah.Ormaybehadabasement,butanyway,verysmall.Small.Onthisside,

wherethe—wherenowtheChinesedrugstoreis,hadadeepbasementallthewaydown.IsaidtoSam,I

said,“Sam”Isaid,“Youknow.TheguywhoIhaveisaPortugueseguy,doingtheexcavationforme.

Youhavetounderpin,”whichmeansbuildingfromthetopdown;that’srequiredbecause you have to beon virgin soil, “soil undisturbed” they call it. I said, “Sam” I said “They tell me it’s dangerous. You

should not—you cannot go down  anymore.” Sam says, “No, you have to go down, your foundation has to elow,justnextdoor.That’stherouteyouhavetogodown.”Finish,wewalkthrough,Itoldhimwell,

continuetoexcavate,underpin.IwalkedbacktoChathamTowers;that’swhereIhavemynewoffice

then.

AndasIgetintomyofficeIhearsirens,fireenginetrucks.Unbelievable!“What’sgoingon?”Thenwhen

Igettotheoffice,somebodycallme,“Mr.Sung,Ithinkyoubettercomebackto6Bowery.”6Bowery

whereyou’rebuildingathree-storybuilding.Thiswasarein…sixstories…reallysuperimposedbuilding.

Finallywegottheeighthstoryontop.Hesaidthereisacollapsedbuilding.Sowhathappenedwasthis,

theundergrounddirtunder6and8Bowery,theycall“CanalStreet”forareason.Alright.It’sallsand,

andthesandwaspurewhitesand.Like,likesugar,alright.Thelateralpressure,pressurefromtheside,

becauseit’sfluid;it’snotsolid,pushedthewallawayandsothenextdoorneighborrestaurantdropped

downlikeanelevatorfloor.WhenIcameback,therewasaladytrappedinthebottomoftheelevator.My

entirefacerightsidebecomenumb.Atthatparticulartime,andItellyou,honesttogod,Ifeltitwould

havebeenbetterformetobedownthere.Fortunately,shedid—sherecoveredfrominjuries,shedidnot

die.It’sokay,wegother—shegotout,wasinthehospital.Andshewasrecovered,ultimately.Thank

goodnesstherewasnofatality.Butwedidhavealawsuit.Thelawsuitwasfromalawyer,oneofthe

lawyerwhopracticedlawinChinatownwhosefatherwasthepaperbroker.[LiuDeguang?]

AC:Sohewasyourrival?Right?

TS:No,hewassuingus.

AC:Right,theson.Thelawfirm.

TS:Yeahhe’s—Mr.Liucommenced[AC:Oh.]thattorepresenttherestaurant.Andhesaidwewanttwo

milliondollars.Isaidthewholebank’sasset’stwomilliondollars.No?Sohedraggedout.Theleasehad

threeandahalfyearstogo,Ithenwasabletofindsomebody;Iwasveryyoung,youknow…to,to,to

shoreupthebuildingtorestoreitsohecouldgoback,technically.Sothathewouldnotbeabletosay

thatwepreventedhimfrom—youknowwhatthefinalsettlementwas?$200,000.That’sallhegot.He—

thelawyergotmaybeonethird,andtherestaurantonlygot—.Isaid,serveyouwell,whenyouare—his

thoughtwas,I’msure,hetoldme,“howcouldyou,notfromChinatown,comehereopenthebank,and

I’malawyerinChinatown,”[laughs]“Icouldn’tdowhatyou’redoing?”

AC:Wow.

TS:Atthattimein,youknowhowoldIwas?

AC:40?Maybe?

TS:wushisui,五十岁.

AC:50yearsold.

TS:五十.

AC:50yearsold.

TS:Yeah,sothenIremembermyfatheralwaystoldme,“四十岁[sishisuifortyyearold],Confucius

say, 不惑[bu huo to not be confused], right, 五十岁知天命[wushisuizhitianmingat ageone learns of

heaven’s design (fate)].”At 50 years old,you recognize and yourealize, no matter how much you think,

howcapableyouare,whateveryouthinkyoucando,ifgoddoesnotwantyoutobesuccessful--succeed,

youwillnotbesuccessful.Sozun[accurate,準]Atage50,你知天命[nizhitianmingyouknowfate].

AC:Soofcourseweprobablywon’tcoverAbacus,thislawsuit,indetailbecausethemovieisthere.But

doyouthinkthatthesuccessfuloutcomeofthislawsuitalsowassomewhatrelatedtotianming[fate天

命].Thatyouthinkitwasfate,orthatgodwantedyoutosucceedthateventuallyyouprevailed?

TS:I-Ialways,youknow,Anne,afterweformedthisbank,Ididn’tformitwiththepurposeofmaking

money.Wehiredaguytobethemanagerofthebank.IthoughtIcoulddomything,developrealestate.

IfIdevelopedrealestatetoday,IwouldbelikeFrank[Liu],right?Frank.IfI,ifIdidnotsaythatIwould

beahundredtimesbetterthanIamnow,atleasttentimes;becauseIwasthenthefirstdeveloper.

Nobodyeverstartedthething.TherewasnotransactionpassinglowerManhattan.LowerManhattan,

withoutmefirstknowaboutitbecausethenIwasthenassociatedwithStandardAbstract.Icouldhave—I

couldhavebenefiteddoingrealestate,butIchoose—not,notreally,reallycompletelychoose—theguy

whorunthebank,JamesTang,causeduslose$30,000everymonth.Ilookatourasset,lookattheway

hewasrunning,absolutelyhavenoknowledgeofwhatbusinessconceptis.Isaid,“Ifhecontinuestorun

thethinghere,fortwoyearsthebankwouldtotallygodownthedrain.”Everymonth$30,000.Afterthree

monthsIjumpin.ThenIhavetoneglectmylawpractice.Peoplesay,well,you-you-you-you-younow

runthebank;yourdaughterhastopracticelawforthebank.Butwehavealawpracticebeforethebank.

Busy.Alright,itwasvery,verybusy.Butwediditbecausewewantedthebanktosucceed.SoIspentall

thetimetodothebank.TothisdayIdonottakeanysalaryfromthebank.Anyprobonoworkinvolving

thetown,soforth,Itoldmydaughter,“Vera,donotchargethem.Theywanttoformacemetery,you

know,doitforfree.”Iusedtocoversomanythings.Doitforfree,that’sokay.Goodthingswillbe

addeduntoyou.Whateveryougiveissomehoworanother,youwillgetbackonewayortheother.

Spirituallyor[laughs]financially.Yougetback.

Sothat’showwedidit.Sowhentherunstartedin2003,peoplesay,neihowding…Guandongrengang

ding[youaresocalm,theCantonesesay,socalm你好定，廣東人說定],means“youdon’tgetnervous.

Howcomeyouare“soding.”Hui-lingwouldsaytome,“Whatareyougonnado?They’regonnabe

run!”Sheaskedmeprogressively,“What’reyougonnado?”Isaid,“What’rewegonnado?”Isaid,“You

don’thaveto—ifyou—ifyou,ifpeoplewillgatherandyouhavearun.”Shesaid,“What’reyougonna

havearun?”andIsaid,“Youhavearun;youhavearun.”Youknow?[laughs]I-Ididmybesttoprepare

theinstitution.Wenevertookadividendout.Weletthebankbuildupitscapital;youknow,asmuchas

youcan.Andwenever,Inevergavethekidsasalaryincrease.Ofcoursetheydon’tneedit;wegivethem

realestate—[laugh],theyall…aboutthat.But,ifwedidnotdothat,ifIwasnotwhatIdecidedtostart,

youknow,thebank;Iwouldhavebeennervous.Idon’tknowifthebankcouldsurvive.Idoubtit.When

Icamebacktothebank,duringthefirstbankrun,theysay,“itwasarunthatyouhavenotseensincethe

Depression.”That’swhattheAssociatedPresssaid.Withinallthebranchespeoplewerepilingupthree

blocks,fiveblockslongbutwhenI,they-they-Ididnotknow.IwasinFlorida.WhenIcameback,the

AssociatedPress—afterI—wheneverIcameback,Iwentontheline,Itoldthepolice,givemeabullhorn

inthemorning,peoplestartedtogather,pileupwaaaayinthebackthere.Ithenannouncedtothem,“Iam

here.IdidnotrunawaywithCarolLim.”TheythoughtIrunawaywiththiswoman.WenttoChina,you

know,shewastheVicePresident,inchargeofoperation.Theythought,theysaid—Itook50million

dollarswiththewoman,wentbackanddisappearedinChina.Youknow.Thatwastherumor,right.So

whenIcamebackIsaid,“Hey,I’mhere!”Youknow,“Everythingshouldbefine,noproblem!”Right,so

thecrowddisappeared.I’mdissipated.

Thenextdaytheycomebacktodepositmoney[laughs]honestly!JustliketheBailey’s—but it’s not.So

that’showthestoryaboutBaileycomparewith“It’saWonderfulLife”[themovie]startedin2003.And

wewereunderlotsofpressure.WhenI—onmywaybackHui-lingwasdriving,Iwasinthecar trying to nderstandwhat’sgoingon,andIwasstillthink—nobigdeal,I’llhandleit,youknow[laughs].And

thentheregulatorcallmehesaid,“Tom!”hesaid,“Youknow,you-you-youshouldknowthatthisisnot

funanymore.Youareinrealdirestrait.”Isaid,“Why?”“TheregionalcommissionerofOTS[Officeof

ThriftSupervision]said.”Isaid,“What?”Hesaid,“FederalReserveBankdecidedtopullthedaycredit.”

Isaid,“What?!”“Theypulledthedaycredit!”Economics101willtellyou,whenthebankis

fundamentallysound,youneedthecash;theFederalReserveBankissupposedtoinjectcashtohelpthe

bankinthatsituation.“We’retotallysound!”Isay,“Wehavethemoney.”Youknow.What?“They

withdrawthedaycredit.”Isaid,“WellwhatabouttheFederalHomeLoan--”Isaidtomypeopletotake

theliquidassetbond,governmentbond,soforth,to,touseascollateraltogetthecash.Wellthat’s

normal.Who’sourcorrespondingbank?Former,regulator,FederalHomeLoanBank,beforetheywere

separatedtheywereFederalHomeLoanBank,right.SoIsaid,“Mr.Sung,FederalHomeLoanBank,

insteadofgivingyouahaircut,decidedtoonlygiveyou50%ofyoursecuritythatit’sworth.”Isaid,

“That’ssoridiculous!”Isaid,“Icantakethesecuritytomorrow,Icansellit!Whatiswrongwiththese

people.”SowhenIgettoNewYork—IrushbacktoNewYork,Idissipatedacrowdfortheliquiditywas

abigproblem;AssociatedPress,everynewsman,youknow,Iwasjustliketheuh,allthenewspapermen

wantedtotalktome.Theruntheneighbors,youknow,seensincetheDepression.SowewenttoCanal

Street,weusedtohaveabranchinCanalStreet.WelosttheCanalStreetbecausethislousyVancecase.

Wedidn’tlosealot,alot—shangyuanqi[傷元氣damagetheinnerqi][laughs].SoIwentthere.The

newspaperaskedme,say,“Mr.Sung,therumoristhatyouwentwithCarolLimwith50milliondollars

andwenttoChina.What’syouranswertothat?”Isaid,Ilookattheguy,Isaid,youknowwithasmile,I

said,“Listen,whoeverstartedthatrumordoesn’tknowhowtoughmywifeis.”[laughs]Everybody

laughs,sothatwas—thatwastheanswer.

AC:So--

TS:[overlapping]Thatwasthat.

AC:Ifyouhadtodoitagain,wouldyoustillstartAbacus—afterallthishappened—wouldyoustillstart

Abacusagainlikeyoudid?

TS:[overlapping]Well,yeah,peopleaskmethat.Youknow,Idon’t—I,youknow,myfatherisan

extremelycautiousperson.Iseehow,becauseofhisalwaysquestioningpeople,doubtingpeople,how

toughalifehehas.AndIswear,whenIgrowup,Isaid,“WhenIdobusinessIwillalwaystrustpeople.”

Asaresultoftrustingpeople,ofcourseIhadtheCarolLimepisode,right.AndthenIsaidIalwayswant

totrustpeople.ThiswayhereIfeeltobehappier,to-to-to,inmylife.AndIstillbelievethat.AndIsaid,

“Idon’twanttoregret—Ialwaysrememberthat,theConfuciushasasaying,right,‘Ifyou’retrulywise,

youhavenodoubts.’‘zhizhebuhuo,renzhebuchou’[知者不惑.’‘仁者不愁]’‘Ifyou’rereallykind,you

have—youdon’tworry.’Right?

AC:That’sgreat.So—[overlapping]

TS:[overlapping]‘yongzhebuju勇者不惧’Ifyou’rebraveyoushouldn’tprove(?)it—you’renot—you

shouldn’tbeafraid.

AC:That’sright.

TS:So,soIalwayssay,ifadecisionismadeandthatcomesout,that’sgod’swill.Sothat’sfine.IfI

weretoliveagain,toansweryourquestion,Iwouldprobablydothesame. 

AC:That’samazing.SoweaskedChant—yourchildren,Chanterelleifshehadanyquestionsshewanted

ustoaskyou.Andshesaidshe’salwaysthoughtthatyouandMrs.Sungverymuchbelieveinthe

Americandream.Umandshesays,isthatstilltrue?Andhowmuchdidthatimpactyourdecisiontodo

whatyoudid?Yourlife?

TS:[sighs]Well,‘Americandream’isatermusedforpeoplewhocomehereasanimmigrant,somehow

theyfoundsuccess.Inmycase,ofcourse,well,people—myfamilydidhavesomeassets,butwhenIleft

Florida,itwasagainstmyfather’swill.Hedidnotwantmetoleave.Hewantedmetostay,andyou

know.ButIthoughttherightdecisionistoleavebecauseit’slimiting.SoIborrowed$230fromhis

friendandcametoNewYork.Idid-Ididnotuseonecentoffamilymoney.So,butImustsay,though,

knowingthatthereisalwaysaplacethatIcanreturn,gavemethatconfidencethatotherwiseIwouldnot

havewithoutafamilybasetosupportme.Soit’snottotallybyyou,right?Youmightnotmakethesame

decisionifyou’retotally[inaudible],but...Truthfully,Ihavenotusedanyofmyfamily’smoneyto,to

accomplishforwhatIhavemade—mostlyaccomplished.Butthat’sjust,inafigurativeway.Butwhether

ornotthedreamisaccomplished,Idon’thaveanyregret.I…ifyoubelieveinprayerIalwayssaythatI

thankgodnotbecausethefactthatthatIamabletohavesomecontrol,certainamountofassetsor

whatever,andofcoursetoalotofpeoplethat’snothingtoday.ButI…Ithankgodfortwothings.One,is

thatitgivemetheabilitytoanalyze.Youknow,the,youknow,again,goingbacktoConfuciussaying,

thatyouhavetobe,knowhowtofengshi[analyze分析],youknow.Thentocometoadecision.Andyou

havetobethankfulthatyourwealth,physically,thatyou—notwithstandingthetribulationandhardship

thatyougothroughinbusiness,butthat’ssortofexpected,right?You-younothingcomessmoothly.You

alwayshavesomething.Andwiththat,youhopethatyoucansomehowreturntothe-tothesocietyor

something.ThatyoucanbelieveandyoucansaythatIhavedonemybest.

AC:So,somaybethefinalquestion.Ifyouhadtosayonethingthatyoufeelsoproudtohave

accomplishedinyourlife,whatwoulditbe?

TS:Hm.Idon’tknow.OnethingthatIhaveaccomplishedinmylife?

AC:Ormaybeseveralofthemostproudaccomplishments.Becauseyou’vehadsomany,itmaybehard

tochooseone!

TS:[laughs]Yeah,inasenseyoucouldsayyouhavesomanyaccomplishments,hardtochooseone,or

youcansayyouhavesomanymediocreonesyoucannotfindagoodonetosay[laughs].Well…well,I

wouldsay,ofcourse,anybodyalwayssay,ifyourchildrengrowsupandtheyarenotondrugs,theyare

allself-supporting,theyareprofessionalpeople,theyareallhonorable,that’scertainlyan

accomplishment.That’snotmyaccomplishment—ifIsaythatmywifewouldsaythat’sher

accomplishment!WhichIhavetoreadilyagree,youknow[laughs].Butjokingly,Ialwayssaythat,“You

know,eventhoughit’syouraccomplishment,youknow,itwasveryhardformetooaswell.”Shesays,

“whatdoyoumeanitwashardforyoutoo?”Isaid,“Well,Ihadtosetanexampleofhowtoobeythe

mother,youknow?”[laughter]

Idon’tknow…it’sa—alotofpeoplecanpointtoalotofthingsthattheyaccomplishedalot.Yeah,I

alwaysthink,sometimesIalwaysfeellikeIcoulddomore[laughs]butIhaven’tdonemore.IhopeI—I

hopeIcoulddomore.Buttimeisshort.

AC:Wellyou’vecertainlydonealot.[toPW]Doyouhaveanyquestions,Patricia?

PW:Uh…IguessIwantedtoaskyou,youknow,howhaveyouseenChinatownchangeinyourtime

here?

TS:Yeah,that’sactuallyaninterestingstory.Itmaytakealittletimetotellyou.WhenIfirstcameinin

twothousandand…what,1964?Cominghere,Chinatownofcourseitwasaverysmallareaandthetotal

populationoftheUnitedStatesasIunderstandwhattheyweresayingwasaround270,000Chinese,that’s

all.Anditquicklygrewtobesomethinglike750,000aftertheimmigrationlawwaschangedtoallow

20,000Chinesetocomein.ThenthebigchangecameintoChinatown—thefirstbigchange,wasthefall

oftheVietnam.ThefallofVietnam,youknowthis,thehistorytheUnitedStatespulloutofVietnamand

alotofpeoplewhowasinVietnamweresupportingtheUnitesStatespolicyandamongthosewhowere

Chinese.AndthemisimpressionbytheAmericangovernmentatthattimewastheChinesecommunists

andtheVietnamcommunistswerefriends.ButnotrealizingtheVietnamhadthelotofborderconflict

withtheChinese.Yourememberthe7day—short,howmany?7weekswar?DengXiaopingwentinto

VietnamandwentallthewaytoHanoiandit’ssuchaspeed.Butthenhedecidedtopullout.Afterthat,

therewasoneincidentthathistorymaynotknow.Andit’sworthyofusChinesetoknow,isthat

VietnamesestarttopersecutetheChinese,buttheydiditinawaythat—anunusualway.Whattheydid

wastheyconfiscatedalltheresourcesoftheChinesewhodidnotwanttochangetheirname,youknow,

becomeVietnamese.Theyconfiscatedtheirresourcesandgavethemasmallfishingboatandletthemto

sailouttohighsea,andthatwasduringPresidentCarter’sdaywhenVietnamfallandPresidentCarter

becomethepresident,ifyourecall.SoChineseinthehundredsofthousandsandtheyweresayingahalf

millionChinesediedinopensea.Andatthatperiodoftime,thisisnotastory,andIspent8weeksagain,

stoppedmyregularpractice,andIdecidedthatthereisamissionthereforustoaccomplish.Weneedto

dosomethingtosavetheboatpeople—theChinesepeople.Iremembergoingintomeetingsandsoforth

andbecauseIknowimmigrationlaw—Ipracticeimmigrationlawhere,Iconsultedtheimmigration

lawyerandfindoutwhattheprotocolisforrefugee.Thefirstcountryoflanding,thecountrymustaccept,

andIwasthinkinghowwecanthenbringtheserefugeesonthehighseatotheislandofGuam.Andyou

wanttohearthatstory?

AC:FromGuam?

TS:Yeah,yeah.

AC:Wemaynothavemuchtime…

TS:Yeah,okay.That’sright.soyoudon’thave—I’llmakeitveryshort.So,anyway,wewentandtried

tofindshipstopickthemuponthehighseaandhavethemsailtoGuam.Andthatdidnot—wasnot

successfulbecausetheshipownerdidnotwanttopickthemupandgotoGuambecausehewasafraid

thattheAmericangovernmentmightholdhisships.Soeventhoughwecameoutwithaplantosend—go

parkitininternationalwaterandhavethefishing,smallboatssendthemintoGuam.Butanyway,itwasa

big,tensemoment.Peoplewerejustdying.MotherTheresawastheretryingtohelp.Reverend

Tanenbaum,famousJewishrabbiandacardinalhereinNewYorktryingtohelp.Andfinally,whocame

tohelp?Toansweryourquestionthere,tocomebacktoyourquestion.TheQuakerswentandpicketthe

WhiteHouse.Carterwasthenthepresident.Everyoneholdacandle.Theysaynothing;theyjustwalk

aroundtheWhiteHouse.AndCartercouldn’ttakeit.HesenttheSeventhFleet,pickedthemup.

Overnight,theChinesepopulationdoubled,700,000.Thatwasinanswertothesecondpartofyour

question.Sothat’sachangetoChinatown.Andthere,withthatgroupofVietnameserefugees,alotof

themendupinFlorida,inTexas,infishing…inwhichyoumaynotknowthestory.There’salotof

interestingstoryaboutthem,andalsoinconnectionwiththegangandextortion,becausetheseyoung

kidsweremilitarilytrained.SothatchangedthecharacteristicofChinatown.

The third major change was the Fujianese illegal immigrant came in. The Golden Venture people. If you connect that, the Sister Ping, Ping jie.

AC: Right.

TS: Yeah I remember Ping jie.

AC: Yeah, I read about her.

TS: You read about her, alright. Yeah, Ping jie. And he came in, he brought the people illegally to come in. And the Fujianese people dominated, so now even New York, Brooklyn, today they all become very successful prosper. They were willing to suffer for so characteristic of Chinatown changed greatly greatly because of that in capacity. So that is the story. In between that, there are a lot of other stories.

AC: Well thank you so much. And this is such a quick run-down of Chinatown history! I’m very impressed [laughs]. But thank you so much for the sharing your story with us. And I feel like this is just the beginning. There’s so much we need to understand [overlapping] and maybe come back for another interview.

TS: [overlapping] Well you’re very kind and you’ve very ambitious and I didn’t even show you the orphanage--

AC: Yeah.

TS: Did you see it?

AC: No, I took some pictures.

TS: Oh you took some pictures okay.

AC: Since we’re still recording [PW:Yes.] could you maybe open and show us a little bit? [overlapping] This way we have-

TS: Yeah, yeah, okay.

AC: I took some pictures of the table of contents.

TS: Oh ,I see. [papers rustling] That was during the time when he built, built the orphanage—I mean building the factory. See, this is bao ta [宝塔 treasured pagoda].

AC: When you went back were there two menschen [门神]? Were they still there? Or they’re gone? They’re two scary deities outside the front.

TS: I didn’t understand you.

AC: Oh,so you said when you were young you would run into the temple because you were afraid of two monsters--

TS: That’s right!

AC: They’re gone? [overlapping]

TS: They were no more. [speaks Chinese] so you see, these are the orphanage.This is my father, this is the head of the orphanage, and these are the orphans.

AC: Can you put your finger on your father?

TS: This is my father.

AC: Okay.

TS: Yeah. So all these are the orphans that he was trying to support and build.

AC: The thousand people?

TS: 900 some people, I don’t know how many people. We could gather as many---

AC:Wow.

TS: And this is the 宝塔 (pagoda), xian ling [apparition 現靈].[laughs]

AC: Xianling. The name of the company is right here.

TS:Yeah.

AC:Thank you.

TS:Apprentice?

AC:Yeah.

TS: Mmhmm.

AC: [reading] “send something Chongqing relief institute to enjoy work in the factory.”

TS: Yes.

AC: Wow. [overlapping]

TS: That was the — that’s satisfying for him because he was an orphan. And that--

AC: What an entrepreneurial way to--

TS: Yeah, and there was another one, that’s my father [papers rustling].

AC: In his office.In his factory office.

TS: Yeah, Chong qing general manager. This is him.

AC: Right. Do we havehis name? Do we have—can you write his—do you know his Chinese name?

 TS: Sun Ruilin [孫瑞麟]. Ifyou write his—哎呀，我的中文真差 [Gosh, my Chinese is so bad!]. But anyway--

AC: Sun Rui--

TS: 孫是这个孫 [This is the Sun]…Rue…哎呀 [Aiee] Lin… 我都现在忘记掉 [I’ve forgotten]. You know what, downstairs at the entrance door--

AC: Uhhuh. There’s a plaque?

TS: There’s a wording: ning jing zhi yuan [寧靜致遠].

AC:Okay.I’ll go look at it.

TS:shi Sun Ruilin tide [It was authored by Sun Ruilin 是孫瑞麟提的]

AC:Okay.

TS:Yeah, I know, if it’s not spelled right I know. [pulling out another picture] These are the factory workers.[longpause] You know this is probably not all of them, but anyway, whatever he could gather at that time.

AC:And that’s the factory?

TS:That—that, yeah, that was zhu zong chang [hog bristle factory 豬鬃廠].

AC: So when you were to put this book together, in order to get special treaty merchant status [overlapping]

TS:Yeah so in order to apply for the treaty merchant status. That’s what they did. [overlapping]

AC:Wow so there are letters of recommendation, there are papers — financial papers to show he

[overlapping]

TS:Right—you see zhu zong [hog bristle,豬鬃] is in here, you know, he—how he dealt with the people in, in the— zhe shiz huzong [this is hog bristle 這是豬鬃]

AC:Oh my goodness! This is what the bristle looks like.

TS:Mm.This is black zhu zong. And here--

AC:It is really hard. So he brought some with him?

TS:Yeah.

AC:When he came to the States.

TS:This is white zhuzong, bai zhuzong [whitehog bristle白豬鬃].

AC:Wow.

TS:bai zhu zong.

AC:Oh my goodness.

TS:What—I don’t know, I’ve practiced immigration lawfor a while, I felt that I knew more than he did, the lawyer.[laughs]

AC:I’m sure you do!

TS: He never went through the problem I did in bringing people from the airplane [laughs]

AC: Well thank you so much , this is amazing—[overlapping]

TS: Oh you’re welcome. And say hello to Albert for me [overlapping]

END.

AC: I will! [recording stops]