Interviewee: Thomas Sung
Interviewers: Anne Chao; Patricia Wong
Date/Time of Interview: October 11, 2018
Transcribed by: Priscilla Li, TaylorGinter (11/2/2018)
AudioTrackTime:02:02:00
Edited by: Anne Chao
Background: Thomas Sung was born in Shanghai, China in 1935. He lived in Chongqing during the Resist Japan war, and moved to Hong Kong in 1948. His family briefly stayed in Brazil and eventually immigrated to the United States in1952. He earned a bachelor and a master’s degree in agricultural economics in 1959 and continued his study in accounting and finance for two years at the University of Florida.
While attending the University, he managed his family’s ranch until 1961 when he moved to New York.
He worked with several large corporations as an economic and financial analyst while attending law school at night and began his legal career in 1965 after graduating from Brooklyn Law School. His practice was largely concentrated in immigration and general law.
In 1984, he founded the Abacus Federal Savings Bank which also owns Abacus Insurance Agency Corp and Abacus International Capital Corp. In his career as an attorney and banker, he devoted countless hours to pro bono work for the Chinese community in New York Chinatown. The mission of the Abacus Bank is to also serve the community. Mostly Chinese immigrants.
In 2012, the Abacus Bank was unfortunately
indicted by New York County District Attorney’s office on various charges relating to mortgage fraud.
The Abacus Bank survived the indictment; after 5 months of trial, the Bank was totally vindicated.
The documentary film, “Abacus: Small Enough to Jail,” captured vividly the legal proceedings. The same film received many awards including Oscar nomination, Emmy Award and Silver Gavel Award by the American Bar Association, etc.
Setting: The interview took place in the conference room of Abacus Savings Bank, the interviewers were Anne Chao and Patricia Wong.
Key:
TS: Thomas Sung
AC: Anne Chao
PW: Patricia Wong
Interview transcript:
AC: Good morning Mr.Sung.
[TS:Yes.Goodmorning.]
Thank you so much for allowing us to interview
you. I’m Anne Chao and my partner is Patricia Wong and we’re from the Houston Asian American Archive. And today is October 11th, Thursday, 2018. Uh we’d like to start the interview by maybe asking
if you can tell us where you were born and a little bit about your childhood.
TS: Okay. First of all, let me thank you for coming. We appreciate your making this long trip. Uh I was
born in Shanghai in 1935. Uh when- uh two years after I was born, uh as you-if you-you may not be old enough to go back to that period of time, that was the beginning of the Japanese war. So we moved to Chongqing, my family, my father, myself moved to Chongqing. And there I was there for at
least 8 years, 8½ years, during the 8 years fighting against the Japanese during the war. And after war
then the country was of course then was in several states. The nationalists were in war with the communists, the current, current government. And we moved out of China in 1948 to Hong Kong. In
Hong Kong, I remember I studied junior high school for two years. It was a tough time ‘cause
Cantonese is different than the language that I learned which is uh Szechuan and also Guoyu. And then
of course my native, I mean not native in the sense-my parents are from Suzhou, so they speak the Shanghai dialect more or less. So they took a long period of some what difficult learning and we
learned Cantonese. And then the Korean War started so we were fearful that the war might affect Hong
Kong so we hurriedly - when I say we I mean my family, my father, mother and my siblings, went
to uh-uh came to United States, we find out that we couldn’t stay and for good - for a reason which we
can go into, at the time it was a tail end of the Asian Pacific Exclusion Act, otherwise known as
Warren-McCarran Act, which only allow like 105 Chinese per year. So everybody who comes over to this country from that area, China of course is the target area, would be considered potential immigrants so we couldn’t stay. So then we went to Brazil and in Brazil I stayed for approximately six months. Maybe a little bit more, didn’t go to school or anything like that. Just acquire our
residence in Brazil. And as a result of acquiring the permanent residence status in Brazil, we were then
able to obtain non-immigrant visa because we now have a place to return, tentatively speaking from the
immigration law point of view.
So then , then we came into the United States as a student. My sisters and two brothers
came as a one brother came in as a student. Then of course when we came in here, the
immigration and in those days, it’s called the immigration service, the naturalization service consider
us a potential immigrant, or a non bona fide non-immigrant. So we were detained and I was uh-I recall I
was on Ellis Island approximately three months. I go through hearing. Ellis Island now today is a very
interesting historical place now for people to visit and I even have my family's name in the roster of people on the Ellis Island. So that was a pretty interesting story. Shall I continue?
AC: Well going back a little bit when you were in Chongqing, what was your father’s profession and how many siblings do you have?
TS: Okay sure. My father yeah, my father had a very interesting childhood. I don’t know if you want to hear all about that. But any way to answer your question directly, he was in the bristle business. Bristle business is the hog hair. Hog hair is you know is part of the hog. Hog is pig, right? We - here we refer to as hog.[laughs] And that strip of hair in the back is long, and stiff. Right?And that hair is
utilized for brushes, for paint brushes and so forth. So he was in that business at one time, he
was the largest white bristle manufacturer in Chongqing. So that was essentially what he’s-his business
was. Zhu zong [豬鬃] we call it.
AC: Zhu zong [豬鬃]. I remember I think Vera mentioned when we were together in Houston that he
was an orphan?
TS: Yes so-
AC: Do you want to tell a little bit about your father’s story?
TS: Sure, I’d be happy to. My father always love to hear my father’s story. as
against, I mean not against different from my other siblings. I was the next youngest for 8 years period, I was the youngest one,right so,[laughs] Chinese family favors the oldest one, no question about
that. And sometimes the youngest one also gets a little bit more attention. So my father tells me the
story. He was a, he was-his father died when he was three. And his mother of course, my
grandmother, real grandmother was not able to raise him uh did not, could not afford it. So she gave him to
the uncle, his uncle, for as a son. Chinese have that practice. Right? If you couldn't raise your son, you give it to your relative to raise the son. Well that’d be quite normal, you would say what’s bad about that? Right, your uncle did not have a son, and you get the son from your brother who died.
And that’d be fine, except , the uncle -my father’s uncle’s wife is from the brothels.
Not a good reputable place. When my grandfather, real grandfather was alive, because, he and his brother very similar in terms of voice, in terms of look. And my grandfather, I was told by my father, would always come home and sometimes mistaken by the wife of my grandfather, you know [inaudible]. Thought maybe it was him and he would be always very angry because he was looked down upon…and, so there was that hard feeling in the family about each other.
So when, when my grandfather died and my father was given to him to raise as his son, the so called grandmother who had no children, then saw- and took revenge on him. On my father. And they also adopted a daughter, that’s why you know, my father’s uncle also adopt a daughter. But the daughter had no relationship with the family right, no blood relationship, but was treated very favorably, so to say.
And then the description was to me was, you know the Chinese wear the qi pao. Qi pao is Chinese gown. The woman’s clothes, you know qi pao is on one side. And the man clothes are on the
other side right. So my father get to wear what his sister-sister’s clothes. And when he goes to school,
everybody of course notice that he was wearing a female qi pao. Qipao is a robe, I guess you can call it a robe, right.
[AC: Right.]
And so they, he was always jeered at and made fun of and so forth. And he didn’t have proper shoes to wear and this and so it really took the punishment that, that my father’s
father gave it to the mother and so-revenge on him. So much so that he said that he had attempted suicide three times. They were, they were that tough. So that was the story for my father in terms of childhood as an orphan.
As a result of that, he is always particularly conscientious of people - the orphan, and when he become successful in his very young age and work extremely hard I’ll show you a book about him, part about him. So what he did was he said, okay and I’ve become successful and made a good you know amount of resources and I will now try to develop an orphanage and in that orphanage which is right next to the factory. And he had the conception that orphans, nobody taken care of, said we will make yang 樣(?), let the orphan develop, right into maturity. And the orphan can always have a job going to the factory. So his
factory had approximately a thousand people working but he had the orphanage almost 1000 orphans, small orphan. And that was his story in Chongqing, until the time when the
Nationalists pull out of China, pull out of Chongqing and you know they were defeated by the current Mao’s government. So that was the story about that childhood, but there were many, many things during that childhood I can remember during the Japanese war, how the Chinese flee from the Japanese [clears throat] of course invasion.
We, in Chongqing, the Japanese could not conquer, or extend itself into the interior, but they try to bomb the city into submission, and that was a period of time I guess my wife tells you about his
father fought in the air force I remember in Chongqing there were three air shelters and we call them fáng kōng dòng [防空洞]. Fáng kōng dòng [防空洞] is a natural cave and you see in here,
in this country, a very beautiful caves right-in I forgot it was inTennessee or some where. You could go
in there you see the drips as result of calcium drop, you know, drop down. Almost like teeth of a dragon-you know loong dong [龍洞]. They call it loong dong [龍洞]. And there were three these types of air shelters. In Chongqing and when the Japanese airforce would come bombing, you come first with a they have a-in the high part of the city wherever they find, they would have three type of
ball-colored, right and first when the airplane no longer there, you would have the green one. And when the airplanes coming, you had the yellow one coming up. And then they would have the red one
coming up. That’s means the airplane’s already there. When that comes, then you hear the siren, blowing.
And I just described some about the old days.
And so, so one day the Japanese came and people were of course in the shelter, thousands of people in the shelters and we don’t know what, who inform the airplane, the Japanese bomber, and they bomb the entrance to the three air shelters. And the people were suffocated to death, in terms of thousands of people. They said, you could hear people even after they open the shelter, remove the dead bodies, they said, the spirit was there. So bad and it really, in that period of time, and I remember I was of course young then, I wanted to join-in those days, tong zi jun [童軍], you know the like boy scout thing, right. And you want to march,I said, “gee I want to be a soldier.” [laughs] Everybody wanted to fight the Japanese, right.
And one interesting experience I told in an FBI interview for employer- he became my friend, unfortunately he died. And I said, one experience I can never forget in Chongqing, when the United
States dropped the atom bomb. The story was the atom bomb is about the size of a golf ball. But it’s not, right. We all know now it’s not a golf ball size. And the Japanese unconditionally surrendered after the second atom bomb dropped, in Japan, in Hiroshima. So everybody was so ecstatic, so happy and, went to local town. And Chinese always like firecracker. You know firecracker is a...is a tradition. Every
New Year’s, we light firecrackers and firecracker supposed to be getting rid of the evil spirit and welcome the New Year coming. And as kids we always get so excited about New Year coming, for three days, firecracker. So all the firecrackers in the store were gone, and everybody was lighting firecracker. Oh I was so happy, I was jumping and, you know when people get high. They say when you’re an athlete, sometimes you get high. I felt like I was in the air, going higher and higher, flying. And that experience lasted with me even when-years after. Now I don’t, I don’t dream about it anymore, but I dream about floating in the air because of that experience.
AC: And then so how-when did your father decide to leave everything in Chongqing and start again in
Hong Kong?
TS: Yeah. That was interesting too. When the agitation come, of course you’re
regarded as an industrialist, right. And the so when the strike, strike is no small thing when you havea
thousand workers right…comes strike. And then my father would have them-they were all there
striking, they get together. He would explain to them, say “look, why don’t we just cooperate. It’s
good thing. You people have a good place to make a living and we’re doing good things for the village for the society.” So the crowd dissipated. Alright, so that was fine. And then as it get closer, to the evacuation of the Nationalists coming more of the people’s government, the strike organized again.This time though, it was vicious because there were people in the really
was agitated and I remember when I was a child, sometimes we, we lived in home was away in Hwang 黃 in Nan’an [南岸]. The factory was near Chongqing city itself , I suppose because there was
more population there, all right. And we then- then had police department there, with machine guns so forth guarding the entrance. And then my father said, “well if you cannot listen to reason, then there’s no choice for me.” And people just didn’t think that he would leave and abandon all his assets but he saw. That much I really think my father was great in that sense-he’s sort of a predicted the difficult time at that time. He said no way for him to survive, you know in the
environment that was then, he would put into.
So, he said that we have to leave. So he picked up everything, closed the factory, abandoned all his assets in China. And for awhile, not only he had office in Chongqing, but he had branches in different major cities in Chongqing. And I remember even remember I went to Hankou, 漢口是不是湖北？
[Is Hankou in Hubei?] Yeah along that area, and went to school there for, for a short time. But then he said, no we have to, we have to evacuate, we have to leave. So, so he picked up the family and left all his assets, no time and just go. And so, so that was how that happened. And I went back after the Tiananmen incident, the year after, we went back to China to visit. And we still saw the remnants of the factory and saw the school where the orphanage was, and I remember going into the miào (廟), you know the...guard 有兩個菩薩…哼哈二將,你知道吧？[There were two Buddas, Heng and Ha ,two generals, you know?].
That is the two Chinese you know has an interesting brand of Buddhism is mixed with the Chinese culture, ancestor worship, you people who study Asian ...must understand that. Guarding the gate of the Jiu Lingsi [九靈寺] was two figure, two warriors like thing. Very-
AC: Like shen [神].
TS: Yeah. Very, you know, terrible figures. Scary figure. And I remember when I was a young kid, we had to go in and I just run, close my eyes, run in [laughs], run back. So this time we went back to Chongqing, and see the bǎo tǎ [寶塔]. You know the bǎotǎ [寶塔] is-there’s a pagoda, right. And the pagoda was still there in 2009, right, 2008, we came. 1998,
[AC:‘99]
1998, ‘99. And the bǎo tǎ [寶塔] was there. We had the, we had a guide, and took us back because we wanted to see, you know. And, and then when we left, and they, send us a newspaper that said, oh bǎo tǎ xian lingle [寶塔顯靈了]..you know , the pagoda came alive.You know pagoda-the history of the pagoda is I know some people say pagoda buried underneath where there is some mystic thing, right, [顯靈了]. So I ask, who-how xian lingle [寶塔顯靈了] ...Because pagoda, around the pagoda there was a halo. There was a halo. And then I read the newspaper, a clipping, said that they discover that.They never seen that before, the halo was created by the locust, huáng chóng [蝗蟲]. Locust. Yeah - I wish I had saved those things. In those days, I was so busy trying to, make a living, you know. Your husband must know how it goes [laughs].
AC: [laughs] So then so your education-but tell us about your educational path. You were all over the place, it sounds like.
TS: Yes. It was all over the place, hardly had any place that I could really study Chinese. And I said, Japanese were bombing, bombing, and we would be running to air shelters, in high school, so forth. But anyway in Hong Kong, there were two years, junior high school we did have a you know peaceful, peaceful time, and really study, in Chongqing, hardly. But my father did do one thing, he hired a tutor, a Chinese tutor, he believed in lao fa shu [老法書].You know lao fa [老法] meaning the old Chinese tradition. He admired the Confucius, Confucius philosophy, he’s always admirer of that. And he himself, even though he said did not have that much…He was educated in a Christian missionary school and oh that was interesting too, I’ll tell you about that one. And, then, so we didn’t have-I think we had three or four months of bei, daxue, daxue [背大學, 大學] is like Confucius has four books right
[AC: Sishu WǔJīng(四書五經) Classics.]
Yeah, yeah. Da xue [大學]-we had to memorize it, don’t care whether you know about this or not, and this doesn’t complete-you had to memorize this. So we memorize it, and before that there were liang ge xiao de shemo jing [two small something or other classics 兩個小的什麼經]. I don’t remember.
AC: San zi jing, keneng. [Maybe the Three Character Classic.三字經,可能]
TS: Yes, yes.
AC: That’s for children to start off.
TS: Yeah, yeah we had to memorize it, and then “ren zhi chuxing ben shan,”shi bu shiah? [“The origin of man is kind; his nature is compassionate,” isn’t that right?“人之初,性本善,”是不是啊?] A lot of philosophical difference. For instance, “ren. zhi chuxing ben shan ,xing ben...?”] [“The origin of man is kind;his nature is compassionate, origin of man?”“人之初,性本善,性本?” [laughs] but the best that was, that was interesting.
AC: What was the name of the high school in Hong Kong, do you remember?
TS: In Hong Kong, it’s in-yeah I do remember that. The high school in Chongqing is Chong Wen xue xiao [重文學校] something like that, but anyway I didn’t have chance to really study, so but did have that little bit of exposure in tutor-in zhong wen [Chinese中文]thing. And when I went to Hong Kong, I went to Pei Ying, [培英] chūzhōng(初中), chūzhōng, ye you gao zhong de [ junior high, but it also has a senior high. 初中,也有高中的]. So I studied there chū zhōng liǎng nián [two years in junior high, 初中兩年] and it was a very good education. But in China you know, when
you study, you really have to study. And I remember studying chemistry over there. After I study chemistry over there, even though in here I had to repeat this chemistry in here, I thought I knew everything. You know in chemistry. At one time, I thought I was going to go in medicine. [laughs]
AC: So then from Hong Kong, you came to Brazil, and then came to United States.
TS: Right.
AC: So you said you did not go to school in Brazil?
TS: No, it was a short time, did not go in Brazil. And after we acquire…because, we wanted to come to the United States to study. And so after we got our permanent resident status, we were able to have the American consul issue a student visa for us. Now we came in as a student, and then you know immigration law is two part. I tell you that because I practice immigration law for 20 years. I mean or there about. Okay. So one part is the consulate issuing you the visa, allow you to officially, you know, the attempt to enter United States. At the time you enter the United States, there’s what they call inspection before you’re formally admitted, during that period of inspection, they can then determine whether or not you’re bona fide according to visa or not. So that’s the second step, and there’s where they decided you are not bona fide, non immigrant. Still, we didn’t even know what, what is bona fide, or not bona fide. We didn’t even know okay. All we know we had a problem paper you know. So we went in on the other side, and hearing after hearing after hearing. Very interesting part, the hearing officer-when I start topractice law, they recognize me, I recognize them. It was so funny. They said, “oh let me go dig out your immigration papers here, what are you doing here.”[laughs]
Oh I, I gave them a hard time. I gave the immigration service, the immigration director a real hard time. I use to litigate cases after litigation. I would pull people from the airplane.They were about to be deported, some of them even on the airplane, uh on the airplane, the rule you heard of the writ of habeas corpus the American legal jurisdiction was proud of writ of corpus. And any person who are detained right has a right of applying for writ what they call. That is, you can write this on a toilet paper, and if you have chance – a way to have it -present it to a judge and say, “I have been detained. And I do not know the reason for the detention.” And according to the American jurisprudence, Anglo-American jurisprudence, the judge can then sign an order say, “bring forth this prisoner to a hearing, to determine whether or not he is rightfully detained.” So that's what we call it. I don’t know how many writ I filed.
And how many people I took them off from the airplane [AC:Wow.] even in you know. So got to the point the immigration service in the New Yorkxsaid, “Oh this guy.” I would call the montheuh-to the
district director office and said that, “why are you doing this to us? ”Well, you know. Then they said you now there’s a process before you can go to the court, you had to ask the district director - application for stay on deportation, upon his denial then we can go to court, right. Now he would say, okay, you submit your application. And he won’t, won’t decide, until he has the prisoners. People ready to be deported - prepare on the airplane. Right. By the time you get to deport, the guy’s alreadyontheairplane,gone.Uh
sobecauseit’soutsidethejurisdictionofthecourt.Thecourthasjurisdictionwithintheterritoryofthe
UnitedStates.ButIwouldhavehadpeoplewenttoAlaska,broughtback.BeentoHawaii,broughtback.
Thenwhattheydidwas,theyavoidedallthat;theywentfromhere,toEurope,fromCanadatoflythem
over.
AC:Ohsoyou,soyoualreadyleftthecountry,you’renolonger-
TS:Yeahthey,theytooktheAtlanticrouteinsteadofthePacificroute.Anyway,itwassofunny.AndI
hadagoodtime.Irememberuh...butpeoplecouldn’tunderstand-wherethisyoungguyuhyouknowI
wasyoungthen,Iwasfightingleftandright,andhavingagoodtimebringpeoplein.[laughs]OnetimeI
haduh10,11or12uhpeoplewasworkinginlawandimmigrationserviceraidedthe,therestaurantand
gotthemall12together.Everyoneofthemhadmycardintheirpocket.TheyfiguredmaybeIcommitted
acrimein,in,inimportingthesepeoplein,right.Butthen,theyallfindoutthatthesepeoplewere-they,
they,from,theyallgotmybusinesscard.Sotheyknowwhentheyarehere,they’rearrested,theycall
TomSung.Tomwouldthengo-Iwouldthengotouhthe,the,the,thecallthebondsman.Andthen
bondsmanherewould,wouldputupabond.$2500wouldbailthemout.But,manytimesinthosedays,
theydon’tevenhavethe$2500ready,buttheyhaverelativestoputoutright?But,iftheirassociation
peoplecallme,Itrustedtheassociationperson,thenIwouldputmycreditwiththebailbondsman.So,
themomenttheyarrestedthe-theassociationpeoplegetnoticed,theycallme,Icallthebondsman,inthe
sameday.They’rereleased.[AC:Wow.]Sotherewasaninterestingbattleinthosedays,anduhandthen
uhwelltherearemanyotherthings.It’salsointeresting.
Uh,uhwe,weyouknowwhenallremediesfailed,wewouldaskforcongressionalhelptoissu-,to,to,to
issueaprivatebill.AndIrememberSenatorFong-Hawaiididissueafewfor-thesearepeoplewho
technicallyspeakingreallyarenotenti-entitledtostay,becausethey,theycomeinascrewman.
CrewmenareparoledintotheUnitedStates,notreallyadmittedinthatsense.Sotheycouldnotadjust
theirstatushere.UhbutIwouldthen-becausetheyhaveskill,ifthey’reachef-theyareneededhere,so
Iwouldthenusea,whatwecalled,sixthpreference,getthemallprepared,they’vebeenapproved,and
thensendthemouttoa,a-toEuropeancountry,likeGermany,orsomeconsulatetoissueavisatocome
backagain.Sotheinterruptionwasvery,veryshort.
AC:Sotakethisbacktowhenyoufirstarrivedintothecountry,andthengotoFlorida.[TS:Mmhm.]
Rightandthenyou-wereyouinFloridaforseveralyears?
TS:Nowhathappenedwasthis.Whenwecameovertothiscountry,andaftertheuh,afterwe,wewere
releasedfromthedetention,the,the,the...EllisIsland,andactuallytheyfindouttheyreallydidnot-they
couldnotdetainusanyway,becausemyfatherthenwasapplyingfortreatytrader,that’swhatthisbook
is.Treatytraderisaspecialstatusawardedto,awardedtoalienwhosecountry-Imean,hasatreatywith
theUnitedStates.Andthisparticularpersoncontributedsubstantiallyintermsofthetradewiththe
UnitedStates.DuringsecondWorldWar,thebristle,orhoghairwasconsideredasastrategicmaterial.
Thereasonforthatisbecauseuhhoghairareusedbythenaviestopaintboat-right,that’spaintbrushes.
Butthenyousaywhydon’ttheyusenylontopaintbrushes?But,ifyouexaminethehogbristleinthe
microscope,you’llfindthatthebristlehasasmallchannelgrowonthehair.Sothatchannelis-actslike
apen, you know the pen that you-like, like... so absorbed ink, so you don’t have the-the hair absorbs the paint.You don’t have to dip the brush into the paint brush so often, and you would then be able to paint much easier, that’s one reason.
Andthen,theyusedthebrushtocleangunbarrel,right.Whenyoufirethegun,thegunbarrel’shot.You
couldn’tusenylon.NylonwasthendiscoveredduringsecondWorldWar.Ifyouputnylonbrushinthe
hotbarrelwillcausethenylontocurl,anditwouldloseitseffect.Sobristlewasconsideredstrategic
material.AndmyfathersuppliedconsiderableamountofbristletotheUnitedStates.Hewasthen
qualifiedawardedastreatymerchant.Treatytrader,treatymerchant...treatytrader.Sohisfamilyallowed
to,tocomeinwithhim.Butanyway,hewouldthenapply.Sotheyfinallydecidetoreleaseus.And,and
probablytotheirregret.[laughs]
AC:HowdidyougotoFlorida?Whatwasthedecision?[TS:Okay,so,sothen-]
TS:WewentfromNewYorktogotoCaliforniato,to,to,to,to,hi-,to,toaparochialhighschoolto,to,
to,tostudyhighschoolthereforoneyear.MymotherthenwasinhereinNewYorkandshewas-fell
victimofcancer.Shehadovariancancer,thenwehadtocomeback.Andafterwecameback,mymother
passedawayin19-what‘53,somewherearoundthattime.‘53,‘54.Andthen,becausesomanyofusare
readytogotocollege,myfathersaid,wellit’sahugeexpense,andlet’sfindaplacethatyoucangoto
school,college.Andwe,wedidn’thave,wedidn’thavetimetothinkabout,whichgoodschooltogoto,
right?Wejustthinkaboutwhich-sohappened,itwasagoodschool.WewenttoFlorida,Gainesville,
Florida.Sothereweestablishourresidence.Heboughtaranch,cattleranch.That’swhereIbecomea
cowboy.For7years.
AC:For7years.Soyouwenttoschool,andyoualsoweretakingcareofyourranch?
TS:Yes,I,IwenttoschoolandIalsotookcareoftheranch.Becausemybrothersdidn’twanttodoit
[laughs].
AC:SoI,I-mindifIaskyouhowmanysiblingsyouhave?Haveonebrother,ortwobrothers?
TS:I,I,Ihavetwobrothers.Uhmyolderbrotheruhcamewithmeatthesametime.Myyoungerbrot-
nomyeldestbrothercamewithme.Thenmysecondbrotherstayedwithmymother,onthesecondtrip
came.Buthelateronjoined,joinedofcoursehehelped.MybrotherJimhedied,hepassedaway.My
olderbrother’sstillalive,stilllivinginGainesville.AndIhaveayoungerbrotherwhoismentally-not,
somewhatdeficienttheycallittoday.Somanytermstheycangivetothem,right?Somebodywhojust
didn’t-hedidmanagetopassthe8thgradeandIremembersuchahardtimetoteachhimA,B,C,D
[laughs].Butanyway,hepassedaway.Souhso,sowhen,when,whenwe’reinFlorida,myolderbrother
-oldestbrotherdidnotwanttoparticipate.Helikestosing,helikestohavealotoffunsoforth.That’s
fineyouknowhappierlife.AndIcanattesttothat.AndIwasdesignatedastheoneto..[laughs]
AC:Andhow,howbigwasit-itwasaranch,ithadcattleonit?
TS:Yes,yes.It’s12,12,1200acres.Liketwosquaremiles.Andwehadasmanyasover1000headof
cattle.Andthatwassomeexperience.Someexperience.
AC:AndwhatdegreedidyougetinFlorida?IsthisFloridaStateUniversity?
TS:TheUniversityofFlorida.[AC:OhGainesville.]Yep,inGainesville.FloridaStateisinTallahassee.
Yeah.AndUniversityofFloridalateron-Imeanitwasaland,landgrantcollegeofcourse.AndI
studiedbecausetheranch,Istudiedagriculturaleconomics,whichisaproduction,productioneconomics.
It’smicroeconomics.ThenafterIuhgotmybachelordegree,IgotmyMA,thenwenttothebusiness
schooluhfurthermystudyin finance and economics. I took all the courses to qualify to go into PhD. I
guess, butIdon't have all A’s I have B’s. Lots of B’s. Couldn’t get all A’s and to go into uh, to, to PhD program, you need uh more A’s and then B’s as you know.
C:Andyouwereworkingtoo.Butyouwereworkingtoo.
TS:That’sright.Butthat,that7yearsworkingonthecattlefarmissuchaninvaluableexperiencefor
me.Uhyoulearntounderstandthelimitation,uhasaperson.Youlearntoknowthatyour,your,your,
your,youraccomplishmentorwhateveryouwanttocallit,dependsuponnotjusthumanfactor,but
dependuponGod.Dependupon,zhongguorenjiang[Chinesewouldsay中國人講]Heaven.Right
[laughs].Souhohthere’ssomanyexperiencesonthefarm,Icanneverforget.Oneday,Isaidtowritea
storyaboutmyexperienceonthefarm,how-whatittaughtme.Peoplesay,“wellwewentthroughuh
Cultural,CulturalRevolution.”AndIsaiduhthat,thatwassuchahardtimeforthem.Isaid,“Idon’t
thinkyouhaveevergonethroughthehardtimeonthefarmthatIwentthrough.”Uh...youwanttohear
thestory,youdon’twanttohearthestory?
AC:We’dlovetohearthestory,yeah.[laughs]
TS:[laughs]Um,two,twothings.Uhonthefarm.Youknowonthefarm,itdependsonnature.Uhyou
knowtolive.Therearetwothingsthatthe-somewhatinteresting.WhenIwasarancheruhwhenIgot,
whenIgetonthefarm,Isawthecowboywhohadthreecowboyswererallyingupthecattleinthepen.
AndIsaid,geethatseemslikealotofworkmakingthecattletorunintothepenandit’skindoflikeyou
knownothumanelike.Isaid,whatareyoudoingtothesecattle?”Hesaid,well-uhthecowboy’svery
abruptandshort.We’re,we’repenningthecattleforTBtest.TheyhavetotesttoseeiftheyhaveTB.
Youputthecattleinthere,youputthemintheshoot,yousqueezetheshootandtheycouldn’tmove.And
thentheytakeatest.TBtest.Okay.AndIsaid,welldoyouhavetogothroughthat.Hesaid,welllisten,
ifyouwanttolearnhowtoraisecattle,youshouldgetonahorse,tellme.AndIwastheneighteenanda
half,somethinglikethat,andsaidgeethatwasachallenge.Youknow,tome.SoIwenttherenextday,
theywerepenningthecattle.Theygavemeahorse,soIgotonahorse.RememberI,I’msupposedtobe
theownersrepresentright[laughs].Igotonthehorse.Theywerethererunning,penningthecattle.They
didn’twantpaymeanyattention.Ifollowthemonahorse.Andyouknowhorsewhenthey,whenthey
runandsoforth,itbounces.Youhavetoknowhowtotaketheshock.Ifyoudon’ttaketheshock,you’re
bangingagainsttheseat.Likethis.Afterthethirdday,Icouldnotwalkdownthestairsstraight.Ihadto
walkdownthestairs,likethis,sideways.ButthenafterIrecoverIlearned.Ithenbecomeafull-fledged
cowboy.Icould,IcouldrideahorseIhadnoproblem.Theycouldnottellmeanything[laughs]Idon’t
know.
Yougetonahorse,peoplewouldgetonthehorse,makesurethesaddleis,isuhtightontheWestern
saddlenottheEnglishsaddle.Right,workingsaddle,withahorn.Youropethecattlesoforthlikethat,
right.Soyoumakesureandthenyouwouldsteponthestirrup-it’scalledstirrup,andthencross,right?
Butthecowboyswouldtakeholdonhornbyonehandandthenjumprighton.SoIlearnedtothat.Okay
youcanjump,Icandothat[laughs].Thatwasthosedays.Sothatwasoneinterestingexperience.Then
collateraltothatinthedaywhenIwasraisingcattle,therewerecalves.Whenthecalveswerebornthe
navelcord-areraw.Youknowstillblood,right?From,fromthething.There’sa-thereisaflyinthose
dayscalledscrewwormfly.Screwwormfly,aninterestingcharacteristic.Theywouldlaytheireggon
rawflesh.Therawflesh,would-theywouldthenhatch,becomeworms.Thewormwilleattherawflesh
andtheywoulddropoff.Andthenwhentheydropoff,whentheymaturetheygointo
another...metamorphosiswouldbecomefly.Theywouldthencontinuethatcyclethatway.Sothedutyof
thecowboyinthosedayswastocatchthecalfyouknow.Some calf may be already running 2, 3. Run the calf down, rope them down, tie their leg up. And then pour tar over their navel cord. That was a tough job, really tough job.
Andlook–amountofenergyyouwastein,intryingtocatchthecalf,anddothethingherenow.And
then,whatIwanttotellyouwasthattheUSDepartmentofAgriculture,theentomologydepartment
discoveredthatthesescrewwormflywillonlybreedonce.Becauseofthatcharacteristic,theythenbreed
thesefliesinthelaboratory,enmasse,inbigquantity.Butbombardthemwithradiationsotheyall
becomesterile.Andthentheyreleasethemeverytwosquaremiles,aboxoftheseflies.Andtheseflies
thengo,gomatewiththeotherflyandthenthescrewwormwaseradicatedintwoyears.Thatwassome
achievement.Science-I,Ipersonallywitnesshowwellthatworkedintwoyears,screwwormflieswas
eradicated.Wedidn’tcareaboutthediscontinuationofspecies[laughs].Thatwasafast-itwas
dangerous.Theysaid,ifscrewwormhadexisted,probablythroughsomekindofmu-,mutationduring
theCivilWar,itwouldhavebeenawful.Peoplewould,peoplewoulddie.
AC:SohowdidyougofromacattlefarminFloridatoNewYorkCity?
TS:ToNewYorkCity.Welluhwellifyoudon’tmind,I’lltellyouonesmallmoreincidentaboutthe
farmandI’lltellyouhowIgettoNewYorkCity.So,sothenuhinthewinter,uhweneedtoraisecattle
bygrowinglikeoatswecallitorwheat.Thattypeofthingsgrowinthewinter,right.Sothecattlecaneat
andgetfat,sotosay.So,soone,oneautumnwedecideto,toplant300acresofoats,thatwouldbethe
appropriatethingtodo.Istudied-makesurethetypeoffertilizer,theoatseed,andsoforth.Igotonthe
tractorand,andplowedthe,plowedtheland.Itwas105degreeheat.Andthenfinallywesowtheseeds,
coveritup.Andlowandbeholdtherewasnorain.InFlorida,youneverheardofnorain.Alltheway,
everydaywouldnotgerminate.Iwouldlookingtothesky,hopingthatitwouldrain.Itwasjustso
frustrating.Youweresoanxious,youweresoworried.Andyouspendsomuchtimeandmoneybuilding
youknowfertilizerandthings.Itwasjusttotallyexhaustinginthatkindofemotionalexhaustion-never
experienced.
AndfinallyinFebruary,theraincameinjustasmalllittlebitsotheentireseasonwasadevastation...
withcattle.So,Isaid,thatexperiencetaughtme-Ithenthought,thinkback,whenIcametoNewYork.
Why?WhyIcametoNewYork-mymotherdied,myfatherdecidedtogetremarry.Thatgiveusarelief,
wedon’thavetheresponsibilityoftakingcareofourparents,right.Myfathergotmarriedsohe,hewas
inCaliforniamoreoftenthaninFlorida.SoI,Idecidedthatitwastimetoputthefarmintosoilbank.Soil
bankisaprogrambygovernmenttotaketheproductivelandfromtheproductionandplantintotrees.
Andtreeswouldthenwasverymuchneededforthepulp,fencepost,andthelightpole,thingslikethat.
Pinetrees,right.Soweputallthelandintotrees.Plantintotrees.Andthen,Ithought,thatwas
accomplished.Andtherewasreturn-thegovernmentgaveyousubsidy,notonlyintermsofplanning,
butalsotheyrentedyourland,inasense,for12years.Afterthe12thyear,you’reonyourown,because
thetreeisbigenoughnow,sothatyoudon’thaveto-you’reableto,ifyouwantedtogetincome,you
couldgetsomeincome,carryyouthrough.Oryoucouldjustletitgrowfor20years,andthenharvestthe
treeforfencepostsoforth.SothenIleft,camebacktoNewYork.Myfatherwasagainstit.Hesaid,well
whydon’tyoustayinFlorida.Youwenttoschool,yougotyourMA-yougotograduateschoolstudy
morefor,for,foruhforfinanceandsoforth.I,I,Isawthatmakinglivingonfarmisjustnotthefuture,
verydifficult.Youknow,youhavetohavebig,bigoperationtomakethefarmgrow.
SoIcametoFlor-uhNewYork,andthenthat’showIstartedworking.Yousawonmyresume.Firstjob
waswithGeneralTelephoneandIbecomefirst-theirfirsteconomicanalyst,GeneralTelephoneof
coursebecomeVerizonlateron.AndIhelpedthemdevelopacoupleofimportantthings.Uh...Ifound
thatthetelephonegains-wehad-Ihadalotofstatisticsofwhattheyproduced,butnobodyanalyzedit.
SoIfoundthere’spattern,typicalpatterntothetelephonegrowth.Uhand,and,and,andthatpattern
conformstothebusinesscycle.It’sacoin-,it’sacoincidenceindicator.Inotherwords,whenthebusiness
cycleisup,thetelephonegainisup,the,thebusinessgoesdown,thetelephonegaingoesdown.So with
thatinformation,thenyoucanpredictifthetoolthatyoucanpredictbusinesscycle,youcanpredictthe
telephone growth. And with those information, you can then appropriately predict uh or plan your, your, yourbudgetforplan,for-youknowtobuildtheadditionalequipmentandplan.Sothatwasanimportant
informationforthetelephonethosedays.
AC:AndthenIalsounderstandthatyouwenttonightschoolto,tostudylaw.
TS:Yes,thenIwenttonightschoolbecauseuhwhenIcameoverhere,mypurposewastrytogotonight
school.To,thenIdecidedthat-youknowImean,IcouldhavetriedtogotoNYUtostudymore,butI
don’t’-Igotallthecoursesanywayinthefinancing.Ievenaccounting-Ilackonecourseinaccounting,
that’sauditingtobecomeaccountant.SoIsaidtomyself,welluh...nouselet’strytostudyforPhD.And
theywon’twantmeforPhDanywaybecauseuhyouknowmygradesareallA,ImeanB’s.Idohave
someA’s,notthatmanyA’s.ButmostlyB.[laughs]Idon't’thinkIhaveanyC’sthough.Butanyway,
andsoIdecidedtogotolawschool.AndgoingtolawschoolwasanexpensivepropositioninColumbia
LawSchoolIdon’t-theydon’thaveanightschoolprogram.St.John’shasanightschoolprogram.
BrooklynLawSchoolhadnightschoolprogramsoIwentatnight,insteadof3years,4years.Andthat
wasreally,reallytough.Outof85peoplethatwentin,onlyabout30,35peoplegraduated.And,andItell
youanduhit,itwassotiringthatIsaid…andIhadaveryresponsiblejob,
Iwentinasa-aftertheeconomicanalyst,financialanalysttoFordforshorttime,inDearborn,toMcCall
CorporationandIwrotesomepaper,andtoldthemwhytheylostmoneyintheStanfordcaperand
everybodypraisemeupanddown-thecontroller.[laughs]ThenshortlyIgotanoticefromthe…that
yourjobisbeingeliminated.WhyIfoundoutbecausemypapercriticizedthecommercialprinting
division,thevicepresidentgetsomadatme-formy.That’sworkingforsomebodyelse,that’sthe
problem.Sothen,thatwasgoodthing,soIwenttoMcCall,applyforfinancialanalystposition,through
theheadhunters,right,inthosedays,employmentagency.Andtheuhthefinancialanalysisdepartment,
themanagersaysohitsoundsgoodwe’dliketohireyou,andthenIdon’thearfromhimthenallofa
sudden,saidthevicepresidentoffinancewouldliketoseeyou.IsaidokaysoIwenttosee,seehimand
hesaid,“listenuhIknowyou’recominghereapplyforasfinancialanalyst,”Iforgottheguys’name,
manager,buthesaid,“butI’dlikeyoutobemyassistant.”Hesaid“areyousureeverythingyousaidon
theresume?”“Yeah,suregivemethepapers.”“Bemyassistant,what’sthesalaryyoulike?Don’ttellme
sky'sthelimit”[laughs].YouknowChineseverymodest.Ishouldhavebeen-shouldhaveaskedforthe
sky[laughs]butIaskfordoublethesalary,somewherearound$300.Butthatwasagoodsalary.
SoIbecomehisassistantandwhilegoingtolawschoolandthatwastheimportantjobbecauseallthe
subsidiarycontrollersreportsoforth,Ihadtoreview,Icriticize.Andtheydon’tprobablylikemevery
much[laughs]I,I,I...Idon’thavetherealauthority,butIwastherecriticizing[laughs].So,soJim
Brennan,thevicepresident,sofinallyafterayearorsohesaid“TomI’mgoingtoleavenowthe
company,butIwanttoputyouinagoodposition,”soIcouldhavefollowedthecorporaterouteI
suppose,route.AndIsaidJim,“whatisthispositionthatyouhaveforme?”HesaidwelltheMacmillan
Bookcompany,whichisalargebookcompanyright.Inthosedays,thelargestbookcompany.Idon’t
knowtodaywhattheyare,andsaidthattheirmanagerofthatdepartmenthas-whatisit,16financial
analystsandyoucouldbethemanagerthere,andIwas27,26,26,27.SoIsaid,JimIthoughtaboutit,I
saidthankyouIsaidI,Ijustaboutfinishingmylawschool,Isomuchwantedtotryit,topracticelaw.I
saidifIdon’tdoitinoneyear,IsaidI’llcomebacktothefinancialfield.Sothat’showIstartedmylaw
practice.
AC:AndthenyouhungupyourshinglesinimmigrationlawinChinatown?
TS:NoIdidn’t.SowhatIdidwasIwenttoalawfirmwhichmyuhfamilyhadarelationship,theguy
whowrotethisuhapplyformyfather.LeonFinleyIwenttoseehimtogetsomeadvice,youknowI
wouldthen,ofcoursemakinggoodsalarythen.IcallhimUncleLeon,Isaidlisten,I’muhthinkingabout
starting to practice law. He said, “oh you could come practice with me.” So that was then the firm was calledFinleyandGoreanduhIsaid,wellwhatwillbesalary.HesaidasaclerkIonlycangiveyou$75a
week.$75aweek.Imade4,5,6timesmorethanthat.Isaid,wellI’lltellyouwhat.Justputmynameon
yourletterhead.Iwilltrytobringinthecases.IfIcouldnothandlethecases,youcanhandlethem,
alright.Yourfirmcanhandlethem.Butletmehavemynameonyourletterhead.
TS:--doyouhaveanofficespaceforme?I’dliketo,you,know,sitthere.”Therewereaboutfive,six
Jewishlawyers.Thejokewas,“Tomyou’rein—”‘Finney’isactually‘Finkelstein’hechangedhisname.
“YournameshouldbechangedtoShapiro.”[laughs]SoafterIstayedthereforaboutthreemonthsorso,
IsawtheselawyersandhowtheydoitandI’vedonealotofthesethingshere,contracts,seeingsomuch
ofit.SoI—IdecidedthenIwouldgotoChinatowntoserve—toseeifI—remember,Iwannahaveone
yeartime.[AC:Yes.]Isaid,IwillgotoChinatown.LetmeseewhatIcandoto,uh,to-toservethe
peoplethere.SowhenIwenttoChinatown,whenIgotoChinatown,I’mgoingtodosomethingforthe
community,right,forthemtofeelthatyouarehere,reallycontributingtothecommunity.AndIamnot
Cantonese,andIamnotTaishanese,andyou-youreally,inNewYork,anyway,youhavetobeTaishan.
Taishan.Taishanisasmalllittletown—Imean—in,in,inCanton.Andthere,theoriginalrailroad
builders,that’show—theycomein,remembertheChineseexclusionact?NoChinesecancomein,
Taishaneseweredominant,ifyoudon’tspeakTaishanese,youdon’tspeakChinese.“Tangrenwusick
gangTanghua”[“ChinesepeopledonotknowhowtospeakChinese”唐人唔系講唐話]Right?That—
that’swhatthey’requoting.So.IwenttotheChinatown,Isaid,“I’mgoingtodosomethingforthe
community.”SofirstthingIdidwastofindoutwhatdidtheyneed?Sotheylack—hardlyanyChinese
lawyer,thereweretwoChineselawyer.Onegoodlawyer,BenjaminGim,hehadagoodbackground—
lawyer.AnotheroneisNormanKee.NormanKee’sfatherusedtosellpaper,paperson—paperfather,
youknow,Imean,brokeringthisthinghere.Andyouknowthat’swhattheChineseConfessionActcame
in.So—soI-I-Isay,well,okay,youguyshaveallthegoodcases,nocasesforme.SowhatamIgonna
do?SoIcoulddotwothings.Ifindmyselfalittleplacein-in,onPellStreet.16PellStreet.Secondfloor.
Inthemorning,whenyougototheofficeyouhadtojumpoverthegarbagebag.That’sliterallytrue.
That’showtoughitwas.Jumpoverthegarbagebag.Andtherewerethreeinsuranceguyswerethereand
Isaid,well,letmeshareyourofficewithyou?Andhesaidokayyoucantaketherearbackoffice.SoI
tookthebackoffice,dark,youknow,hardlyanylightsandsorts.SoItookthebackoffice,setupatable,
that’sthat.Andhangupmyshingleasalawyeroverthere,andtheysincestartreferringcasestome,
difficultcases,okay,nobodywant.SoItookthefirstcasethatIhad,itwasadifficultChineseconfession
case.Themanwashere,Willy,wecallhimWilly—washereforhowmany,20,30yearsandcomingasa
paperson,andhiswifewasinChina,couldneverbringhiswifehere,paper’snotclear.SoIgothim
straightenedoutandbroughthiswifeintothecountry.AndthenIstarttowriteinformationabout
immigrationlawandsonobodywasdoingthisservice.SotheChinesejournal—newspaperwelcomedit.
SoI—IeverythingIwroteaboutimmigrationlawwasalwayspublished.SoIbecomewellknown.In
thosedaysyoucannotadvertise.Lawyerscouldnotadvertise—cannonethicspreventslawyerfrom
advertising.So.Butthroughthat,mynamegotwellknown,sopeoplecomeinforsmallthings,forbig
things,youknow,IrememberatimewhenVerawasborn,weputherinacrib,right,andtheywould
comeinfornotariesthen,right,soInotarize,“Oh,no,no,nothing…charge”andtheywouldleaveand
throwonedollar,twodollars,fivedollars,whattheywere—I,I,Willycameinandwesawafivedollar
billonthecrib,right[laughs]sowe—fivedollars—wewenttoChinatownandhadthebestmeal.That
wassogood.Inthosedaysthe—the,theythinkof“longli.”[龍利]“Longli”isfluke.
AC: Yeah,“longlei.”
TS: Yeah,“longlei.”
AC:Yeah.
TS:Yeah.Fluke.Anditwasabiglongli;wehadsuchagoodtimewiththefivedollars,andthat—in
thosedays—thefivedollarisbetterthanafivehundreddollartoday’smeal[laughs].Sothatwas
interestingfield.But,butanyway—
AC:ButyoualsobecamechairmanoftheBenevolentAssociation?
TS:NoI,noIdidnot.IwantedtomakesurethatIwouldnotbecalleduptobecriticized—peopleinthe
community,Ilearned,Ilearnedthat—howtodealwiththecommunityprettywell,Imean,inthatsense.
Uh,ifyou—ifthere’sanytintof,thatyouaredoingthisformoneythenyourreputationis,youknow—
thegroupthatwillattackyouwillsayyou—you—you—youaremakingmoneyoutofthings,right.SoI
makesurethattherearenomoneyinvolved.Everythingprobono.Sowhathappenedwasthis.WhenI
cameinIfoundout“中华公所”ChineseBenevolentAssociationhasChineseschool.TheChinese
school—theprincipal,Mr.LiangwenttoPeiying[培英].Hesawmeinhis—youknow—hesaid“you’re
fromthePeiyingzhonghho[培英中學].”InthosedaystheycalledtheNewYorkPublicSchool
Unincorporated.Totally,youknow,informal,right?Sohesaid,“Mr.Sung,couldyouhelpuswiththe—
withtheformallygetusthecharter?Incorporateus,soforth?SoIdidbothofthose—IthinkIspent
approximatelyeightweeksworkingforthecommunitytotallyprobono.WhatIdidwasorganizethis
schoolthingandgotthemapermanentcharterfromtheDepartmentofEducation.Todothattheyrequire
youtoreallygothroughthedetailandanythingandwhenyou’reyoungyoucandothesethings.And
thenIwantedtogetthemthetaxexemption.Thatwasabitofachallenge.AndIgotthemtodothat.And
thenwhatelsetodo.中华公所.中华公所hasexistedlongbefore,youknow,andtheirrecordwasso
messy.Couldnotpossiblygivethemthetaxexemptionsstatus.SoIsaid,wellhowaboutthebuilding
thattheyoccupythatproducetheincometheycalltheChineseCommunityCenter?Isaidletmetakethe
ChineseCommunityCenterandmakethemataxexemptorganization.That’swheretheschoolis.SoI
gotthemtaxexemptionforthat.And—andthen,soIbecometheattorneyrepresentativefor中华公所
andthenalltheother—becauseimmigrationlaw—alltheotherfamilyassociations—YookYing(育英),
TaiPun(大鵬),and—TsungTsin(崇正)alltheseassociationsaskmetobecomethe—theattorneysoI
wasattorneyforallthe—practicallyallofthem.
Inthosedays,Chinatownwassmall.YouwalkdowntheChinatown,theyallrecognizesyounowbecause
youdidsomuchforthecommunity,right?Thatwasagoodfeeling.[laughs]SoIwillneverthenlackof
casestodo.SoIwassobusy.AndthenImovedout,movedto-to-totheChathamGreen,217ParkRow.
Establishedmyofficerightnextto.Thenagain,Iwassobusy.Iwassotiredworkingasalawyerinthe—
IsaidIcanwork24hoursaday,7daysaweek,peoplewillstillbewaitingonlineforme.SoIsaiddid
you—I—whatIsawwasIwastakingeverybody’sproblemasmyproblem[laughs]workingforsolving
theirproblems.SoIsaidgee,youknow,Ireallyhaveto,youknow,thinkingabouthowIshouldsettle
myself.And—butthenIsaid,that’snotright.That’safter20years,andasalawyer,yousortofburnout;
you’retiedtoadeskallthetimedoing6daysaweekdoingthislawpractice.AndIevenhadtheMafia,
youwouldn’tbelieveit,thereputationwassomuchsobecauseIwasbringinginpeopleleftandright
from—youknow—fromimmigrationserviceso[laughs]soupsetwithme.SoonedayIhadaMafiaguy
cametomesay,“Youknow,Mr.Sungyouhaveagoodreputation,weknowyoucandoit.Andwehave
a,wehavea…guythatwejustwanttokeephimhereforthreeweeks,orfourweekssothathehastime
withhisfamilybeforeheisdeported.Weknowyoucandoit.Andwewillpayyou$5,000feefordoing
that.”Thatwasahugefeethen,right?Iwassotemptedtodoit!AndIsaidtomyself,gee,shouldIdoit?
ShouldIdoit?Onceyougetintothis,nexttimetheywillaskyouagain;nexttimetheywillaskyou
again.Andifyoudon’tdoityou—youknow—youmayendupinagarbagecan. And you don’t want
FBI following you all the time. And I want to do good for the community, and I—I was really trying to help them with the law enforcement, in the police department and so forth. So I decided not to take it. So
thatwas,thatwasthat episode. So.
AC:Sothenyoudecidedtoleaveandwalkawayfromimmigrationlawbusinessandbecomeabanker.
Howdidthathappen?
TS:No,yeah—IreallyneverthoughtIwoulddothat.Theytoldmethattheyneedto—theyneedbanks,
isverymuchneeded.InthiscommunitytherewasnobankthatwascontrolledbytheChinese
community.AndthegovernmentinthosedayswantedyoutoestablishasavingsbankinChinatown—in
theChinesecommunitybecauseitrepresentspeople.Theywantto—theywanttoberepresented.Federal
HomeLoanBankwasthenabankthatsupervisedus,savingsbank,federal.Thestatesavingsbank.State
savingsbanktoowantsyoutodothat—wantedyoutodothat.ButIsayifIhavetostayImightaswell
dofederalsotheyhelpedme—leaned[over]backwardstohelpmegetthecharter.SoIgotthecharter.I
couldn’traisethefunds!Youknow,IknowAlbertthenanditwouldhavebeeneasy.Theywanted—they
wanted,theywantedtwomilliondollars,notcapital.Theycalleditsubordinateddeposit.Whichmeans
you’dbethelastonetotakeoutyourdeposit,right?Thatshouldbeeasy,right?Icouldnotdothat.
Everybodysaysbanksdoesnotmakemoney.TheChinese,youknow,Ihatetosaythis,arenotunitedin
thatrespect.Theydon’twanttopart…theirthings,soIdidn’t—Icouldn’traiseit.Thenthelaw
changed—theyconvertedthethingintoastockcorporation.Sowewerethefirstonetocameinunder
lawin1984[inaudible]tobeissuedacharterforstockcorporation.Toconvertfromamutual—beforethe
bankwasopen—intoastock.Soifwecouldgettwomilliondollarstock.ThenItriedtogetastockwith
alittlebitbetter,peoplewerewillingtoinvest,butevenso,Igotafewpeopleinvestverysmallmoney,
likemaybeabout300somethousanddollars,therestofwhichIaskedmyfamilytoputup,togetbank
open.AndIthoughtifthebankopenedthat’dbefine;myfatheralwayswantedtoopenabank.Hewas
associatedwithShanghaiCommercialBank.Sowealwaysthoughtmaybe,youknow,thebankisthe
rightthingtodo,becausethatcouldreallyhelpalotofpeople,notjustonepersonatthetime.Sowe
openedthebank.Two—threethingsarerequiredinabank.Oneisthelocation;oneiscapitalwhichwe
gotthetwomilliondollars.ItwasonlytwomilliondollarsinNewYorkCity—todayyoucouldnotdoit
for15milliondollarstoopenacharter,right.Sothen—thethirdoneisqualified,experiencedpersonnel.
SoIwashelpingMr.LiangopenuptheUnitedOrientBank.ThatwasthebankthatIhelpedformbefore
thisbank.UnitedOrientBankformcouldnotraisethecapitaleither.Theygottwomilliondollars;the
staterequiredfivemillion.Theylackedthreemillion,wecouldn’traiseit,andfinallya…aguybythe
nameofEddie..EddieChen(?)(?).EddieChenwastheformerdeputyinspectorfromHongKongwho
wasthe,youknow,soughtbytheHongKonggovernmentfor,forcrime.Soheknewinadvanceheleft,
right?He’swdell-informedandthenhecontrolledthe—hewentandjoinedtheOnLeongbecausethe
moneythathehadandsoforth,hethenbecomeheadofOnLeong.Thenhesaidthat“Iwillputuptwo
milliondollar,matchingthetwomilliondollaryouraised”andsosoUnitedOrientBankwas—K.C.
wantedtoopenthebank.ThenIsaidtoK.C.no,youknow,mypositionasalawyer,Icouldnotbe
associatedwithpeoplewhowasnotclean.AndeventhoughIspent,Idon’tknow,intermsoflegalfees,
itmustbe$150,000worthofmy,inthosedays,timeindoingthat,togettheUnitedOrientBankformed.
SoIsaid,K.C.ifyouwanttodoit,it’syourbusiness.Iunderstand;youwaitedforalongtime,andI,you
know,yourpersonalfeeling,butIjustcouldn’tdothiswithyou.Sotwoweeksaftertheopen,Iresigned.
EverybodysaidIwasveryfoolish,youshouldhavegotyourmoneyback,oranyway,youknow,like
fromfees,thingslikethat.Isaidno,no,no,Iwanttokeepclean.Sothat’showIformedtheAbacus
Bank.
AC:Wow.That’samazing.So—[overlapping]
TS:AndUnitedOrientBanktwoorthreeyearslater,ofcourse,hadarunbecauseEddieChansaidhe
wastheheadofthebank,andheadoftheRepublicanparty.And Mrs.Chen—General Chennault’s wife
said, said I have always been the head of the, the Republican for the Chinese, and how could you be then called…?TheystarttoinvestigatewhatkindofguythisEddieChanisandfindoutallthesecriminal
background.Hewalksaroundwiththebaobiao[bodyguar]保镖,youknow,baobiao[保镖]?
AC:Bodyguard.
TS:[overlapping]Bodyguard!Withagun.Ihadonemeetingwithhim.HewantstotalktomeandIwant
totalktohim.Isaid,boy,thisguyhere,notme—ifhesaysapprovetheloan[and]Isaysno,whatamI
gonnadowithaguylikethat?Right?Yeah,Ican’tcompromisewithhimlikethatinprinciple,soIjust
walkedaway.So,so—Mrs.ChennaultthenreportedtofriendsintheSenate,Senateconductan
investigation,findoutwhatthebackgroundof—ofEddieChan.EddieChan—theycausebankrupt.So
everybodysaysTom,youweresmart.Twoyearsearlyyouleft.AndEddieChanisthebook,“TheYear
oftheDragon.[AC:Oh?]Itwaswrittenabouthim,itwas“TheYearoftheDragon”hewasareal
criminal.Realcriminal.
AC:AndwastheAbacusopenatthislocation?Thiswastheir—[overlapping]
TS:Abacus—then,thenAbacuswasokay—I,IonthesideIwasdoingarealestatebusiness.When
you’reyoung,youknow,you’reambitious;youdoallthethings.Never—nothingfazesyou;itseemslike
everythingyoudoyou’resuccessful,right?Now,everythingyoudoisablock[laughs].ButsoIowna
lotofrealestate,yeah.Itstartedoff—thefirstrealestate,ohitwasaninterestingstory.Youneverhave
timetohearallthose.Withnothing.
AC:Wellwe—we,onestory,wehavetime.Youcanmaybeshareonestory[overlapping]
TS:Youwanna?[overlapping]
AC:Yes!
TS:Yeahonestory.Well,asIwaspracticinglaw,Ibefriendedasecondmortgage—aguywholendsout
asecondmortgage—helendsoutmoneyasasecondmortgage.Sofirstmortgagefromthebank,they
maybeneededmoremoneyorsomebody,thenhewouldcomeinandgetalittlehigherinterestisthe
secondmortgagehegot.Alright?BenMallamudistheguy,youtairen[猶,猶太人],[Jewishperson].SoI
befriendedwithhim.Helikedme.One—onegoodthingthough,Ialways,whenIwasyoung,Ialways
hadtherenyuanhao[Goodpeoplerelations,人緣好],Ialwayshadpeoplethatlikeme,youknow.The
teacherlikesme.ThereasonIwasabletoestablishmyselfinhere,notbeingaCantonese,wasalsothe,
because,whenIwas18whenIwasinNewYorkatthattime,IwenttoChinatown,IcametoChinatown,
to-tobaishifu[seekamentor/master拜師傅].
AC:Oh.
TS:Youknow?Youknow?Zhongwen,baishifu[Chinese-seekamentor/master“中文：拜師傅”].
AC: Right.
TS: Yeah,gongfu-功夫.
AC: Oh,夫，功夫,you were learning Gong Fu [Kung Fu]?
TS: Yeah, Gong Fu.
AC:Oh,okay.
TS:Gongfu[功夫],baishifu[拜师傅].IcametoChinatown,IsaidIwanttolearnGongFu,whoshouldI
dotolearnGongFu?Hesaid,ohGongFumaster,MasterWang,youshouldgotoseehim.IsawMaster
Wang,WongMoonToy(黃文采),andhebecamegoodfriendsofmine.Hedoesn’twanttochargeme—
hebecomes,hetrustedmeandtaughtmeeverythingthatheknew.WellIhadsuchcompactedtime
beforeIgotoFloridathatwasduringthehigh—itwas,Ijustfinishedhighschoolatthattime.Three
months,(inaudible).Andheiswellknown.HisteacherwasWangFeihong.WangFeihong[overlapping]
AC:YeahIrememberthat—[overlapping]
TS:WangFeihong(黃飛鴻)is—
AC:Histeacher?
TS:Yeah,histeacher.
AC:Okay.Wang—Fei—Hong.
TS:WangFeihong.AndhesayshealsolearnedfromHouYuanjia
AC:Hou...
TS:HouYuanjia.
AC:[overlapping]Yuan.Thesearetheteachersofyourmaster?[overlapping]OfyourGongFu--
TS:Yeah—yeah,
AC:Your师傅—
TS:Yeah,theotherWangWencai.
AC:AndhowdoyouspellWangWencai?
TS:Wang,Wang,WangWen—WangWencai.
AC:Okay,W-E-N,tai?
TS:Yeah,yeahcai.
AC:T-A-I?
TS:Yeah—[overlapping]
AC: Okay.
TS: 他是 f-f-f-“fujiao pai” [He is“tiger-pawstyle.]
AC:Fujiaopai?
TS:Long—fujiao—“tigerpaw”[overlapping]
AC:Ohhokay.
TS:“Tigerpaw.”
AC:“Hujiaopai”[虎腳派]
TS:Youcanfindout.
AC:Okay.
TS:So,WangWencai,soafterIleft,helikesmesomuch;I’mcallingitrenyuan[peoplerelationship,人
緣],hesaid,hesaid,“Ohtheotherpeoplethatarelearning,”hesaid,“Youpeoplehavetoremember,
youhaveashixiong[elderbrother師兄]inFlorida”
AC:Okay.
TS:Okay.“HisnameisXunKaixing[孫啟誠]youknow,so.SowhenIcameback10yearslaterto
Chinatowntopractice,hedied.Buthisdisciplescameoverto—saidtome,“Oh,baiwo[payrespectto
me].”Woshi,woshi,shibo.[Iam,Iam,elderbrother.我是，我是,師伯].
AC:Oh,right.[TSlaughs]Becausenowyou’remore[overlapping]senior
TS:[overlapping]I’melevatednow![laughs]I’mshibo—so,inthesense,Ihaveundergroundsupport
from,fromnotbeingaCantonese.ButIhavethesupportof…undergroundsupport[laughs].
AC:That’samazing.
TS:Isn’tthatfunny?
AC:Yeah.
TS:Butanyway,we’retalkingabout…
AC:Thelocationofthebank,right?
TS:Yeah.
AC:Therealestate.
TS:Thelocation—soIhadthelocationin,inonMarketStreet.Isaid—Iheldupthischarterfortwo
years,whenitopened,theyregularlycallme,theysaid,“Tom,youknowyouhadthecharterforalong
time,ifyoudon’topen,we’regonnahavetowithdrawthecharterfromyou.”SoIsaid,“Okay.Ididn’t
findtherightlocationbutI’llopenituponMarketStreet.”Youhadtobeagroundlocation,sothey
acceptedthat.Anditwasalotofinterestingstoryaboutthebanktoo--
AC: It had to be a ground location? [overlapping]
AC:Fujiaopai?
TS:Long—fujiao—“tigerpaw”[overlapping]
AC:Ohhokay.
TS:“Tigerpaw.”
AC:“Hujiaopai”[虎腳派]
TS:Youcanfindout.
AC:Okay.
TS:So,WangWencai,soafterIleft,helikesmesomuch;I’mcallingitrenyuan[peoplerelationship,人
緣],hesaid,hesaid,“Ohtheotherpeoplethatarelearning,”hesaid,“Youpeoplehavetoremember,
youhaveashixiong[elderbrother師兄]inFlorida”
AC:Okay.
TS:Okay.“HisnameisXunKaixing[孫啟誠]youknow,so.SowhenIcameback10yearslaterto
Chinatowntopractice,hedied.Buthisdisciplescameoverto—saidtome,“Oh,baiwo[payrespectto
me].”Woshi,woshi,shibo.[Iam,Iam,elderbrother.我是，我是,師伯].
AC:Oh,right.[TSlaughs]Becausenowyou’remore[overlapping]senior
TS:[overlapping]I’melevatednow![laughs]I’mshibo—so,inthesense,Ihaveundergroundsupport
from,fromnotbeingaCantonese.ButIhavethesupportof…undergroundsupport[laughs].
AC:That’samazing.
TS:Isn’tthatfunny?
AC:Yeah.
TS:Butanyway,we’retalkingabout…
AC:Thelocationofthebank,right?
TS:Yeah.
AC:Therealestate.
TS:Thelocation—soIhadthelocationin,inonMarketStreet.Isaid—Iheldupthischarterfortwo
years,whenitopened,theyregularlycallme,theysaid,“Tom,youknowyouhadthecharterforalong
time,ifyoudon’topen,we’regonnahavetowithdrawthecharterfromyou.”SoIsaid,“Okay.Ididn’t
findtherightlocationbutI’llopenituponMarketStreet.”Youhadtobeagroundlocation,sothey
acceptedthat.Anditwasalotofinterestingstoryaboutthebanktoo--
AC:Ithadtobeagroundlocation?[overlapping]
S:Ithadtobethegroundfloor.
AC:Oh,okay.
TS:Thegroundfloor.SoweopenedonMarketStreet.MarketStreetatthattimeisanarrowstreetdown
here,right?Now,itbecomepopularbecausetheFujian-esethinghere.Andwehad—soIopenedup
there.Whilewewerelookingforthisplacehere,and—in…in…Bowery,weboughtthebuildingin
Bowery,andthenconstructedbuildinginBowery.InMarketStreetwehadarobbery,andthat’s,that’s
[laughs]somanyinteresting—thefirsttimetherobbercameandtheyflippedoverthebulletbarrier,we
werejuststarted.Wedon’thavethemoneytoreallybuildanicebarrierandIhadtheconstructioncrew
andeverything.Iputupthe,youknow—abank-likeplace,sotheyflippeditover,grabbedthebagfor
whereyoutaketogivethearmoredtruck,togivetheFederalReserve,right?Andtheytookitaway,and
theycallme,“Mr.Sung!”Isaid,“Whatisit?”“WehavearobberyinMarketStreet.”YouknowIwas
workinginherethen.Idon’tevenrememberwhenweopenedtheplaceup.Isaid,“Well,howmuch
moneydidtheytake?”Youknow,ofcourseweweren’tsure,Ijustwantedtomakesureitwaswithinthe
insuranceamount[laughs].“Yousee,well,theytooknothing.Theygrabbedthetwoemptybags.”
[laughter]Oh,Isaid,“Ohthat’sfunny.Isaid.Well,okay,justbeware,okay.”SoIwasbusytryingtodo
otherthings.Threeweekslater,mustbethesamegroupcame.Thistimeit’sjustlikeinthemovie.Two
guyscamewitha,withahood—withamachinegun,gotinthefrontofthebank;twoflippedin,tookthe
moneythat’sinthebag,300somethousanddollars,andfled—andpeoplepassedby,theythoughtthey
weredoingamoviescene.真的！[really!]Youknow,isn’tthatamazing?Youtalkaboutthesethings
here,youactuallygothroughthat.It’sareally,really…funny.It’sfunny.
AC:Sohowmanyyearsdidyou—Abacushasbeenopen…20?[overlapping]
TS:Uh…Abacusopensince1984.
AC:Ohwow.Sonow30years.
TS:30somethingyears.Yeah.30...34years.Yeah.
AC:You’vehadanamazingcareer.Everythingyou’vedone.
TS:Everything—thisBoweryhastwobuildings,6and8[AC:Yeah.]Okay?SoIthought,youknow,
thatwasmy,inyourpeakofyourcareerright,youthinkthereisnothing—nothingyoucannot
accomplish,youknow.Everythingyoutouchyoualwaysgetdone.Sowesay,we’regonnahavetruck—
itwastwo…oldbuilding.Onepartofwhichisadrugstore—oldChinesedrugstore.Infactthe
Chinatownmuseumhaspartofthethings,inthemuseumthere.Wegavetothemwhattheywanted.So,
soonesidehasarestaurant,hasalease.Theleasedidnotexpire,wecouldn’tgetthemout.Isaid,“okay.
ButI’vegotaconstructivespothere.”Sowestarttoconstruct,andIhiredaguywhoistheheadofthe
citydemolitiondepartment,engineer.Heretired.SamRoberts.Thatguyshouldbetotallyknowledgeable
ofabuilding,correct?Youcouldnot,youcouldnothaveanybodybetterheadofthebuildingdepartment,
chiefengineerandallthatstuff.So.Wedig.Onthissidehere,ontheeighthBoweryside,therestaurant,
hasnobasement.Small.Yeah.Ormaybehadabasement,butanyway,verysmall.Small.Onthisside,
wherethe—wherenowtheChinesedrugstoreis,hadadeepbasementallthewaydown.IsaidtoSam,I
said,“Sam”Isaid,“Youknow.TheguywhoIhaveisaPortugueseguy,doingtheexcavationforme.
Youhavetounderpin,”whichmeansbuildingfromthetopdown;that’srequiredbecause you have to beon virgin soil, “soil undisturbed” they call it. I said, “Sam” I said “They tell me it’s dangerous. You
should not—you cannot go down anymore.” Sam says, “No, you have to go down, your foundation has to elow,justnextdoor.That’stherouteyouhavetogodown.”Finish,wewalkthrough,Itoldhimwell,
continuetoexcavate,underpin.IwalkedbacktoChathamTowers;that’swhereIhavemynewoffice
then.
AndasIgetintomyofficeIhearsirens,fireenginetrucks.Unbelievable!“What’sgoingon?”Thenwhen
Igettotheoffice,somebodycallme,“Mr.Sung,Ithinkyoubettercomebackto6Bowery.”6Bowery
whereyou’rebuildingathree-storybuilding.Thiswasarein…sixstories…reallysuperimposedbuilding.
Finallywegottheeighthstoryontop.Hesaidthereisacollapsedbuilding.Sowhathappenedwasthis,
theundergrounddirtunder6and8Bowery,theycall“CanalStreet”forareason.Alright.It’sallsand,
andthesandwaspurewhitesand.Like,likesugar,alright.Thelateralpressure,pressurefromtheside,
becauseit’sfluid;it’snotsolid,pushedthewallawayandsothenextdoorneighborrestaurantdropped
downlikeanelevatorfloor.WhenIcameback,therewasaladytrappedinthebottomoftheelevator.My
entirefacerightsidebecomenumb.Atthatparticulartime,andItellyou,honesttogod,Ifeltitwould
havebeenbetterformetobedownthere.Fortunately,shedid—sherecoveredfrominjuries,shedidnot
die.It’sokay,wegother—shegotout,wasinthehospital.Andshewasrecovered,ultimately.Thank
goodnesstherewasnofatality.Butwedidhavealawsuit.Thelawsuitwasfromalawyer,oneofthe
lawyerwhopracticedlawinChinatownwhosefatherwasthepaperbroker.[LiuDeguang?]
AC:Sohewasyourrival?Right?
TS:No,hewassuingus.
AC:Right,theson.Thelawfirm.
TS:Yeahhe’s—Mr.Liucommenced[AC:Oh.]thattorepresenttherestaurant.Andhesaidwewanttwo
milliondollars.Isaidthewholebank’sasset’stwomilliondollars.No?Sohedraggedout.Theleasehad
threeandahalfyearstogo,Ithenwasabletofindsomebody;Iwasveryyoung,youknow…to,to,to
shoreupthebuildingtorestoreitsohecouldgoback,technically.Sothathewouldnotbeabletosay
thatwepreventedhimfrom—youknowwhatthefinalsettlementwas?$200,000.That’sallhegot.He—
thelawyergotmaybeonethird,andtherestaurantonlygot—.Isaid,serveyouwell,whenyouare—his
thoughtwas,I’msure,hetoldme,“howcouldyou,notfromChinatown,comehereopenthebank,and
I’malawyerinChinatown,”[laughs]“Icouldn’tdowhatyou’redoing?”
AC:Wow.
TS:Atthattimein,youknowhowoldIwas?
AC:40?Maybe?
TS:wushisui,五十岁.
AC:50yearsold.
TS:五十.
AC:50yearsold.
TS:Yeah,sothenIremembermyfatheralwaystoldme,“四十岁[sishisuifortyyearold],Confucius
say, 不惑[bu huo to not be confused], right, 五十岁知天命[wushisuizhitianmingat ageone learns of
heaven’s design (fate)].”At 50 years old,you recognize and yourealize, no matter how much you think,
howcapableyouare,whateveryouthinkyoucando,ifgoddoesnotwantyoutobesuccessful--succeed,
youwillnotbesuccessful.Sozun[accurate,準]Atage50,你知天命[nizhitianmingyouknowfate].
AC:Soofcourseweprobablywon’tcoverAbacus,thislawsuit,indetailbecausethemovieisthere.But
doyouthinkthatthesuccessfuloutcomeofthislawsuitalsowassomewhatrelatedtotianming[fate天
命].Thatyouthinkitwasfate,orthatgodwantedyoutosucceedthateventuallyyouprevailed?
TS:I-Ialways,youknow,Anne,afterweformedthisbank,Ididn’tformitwiththepurposeofmaking
money.Wehiredaguytobethemanagerofthebank.IthoughtIcoulddomything,developrealestate.
IfIdevelopedrealestatetoday,IwouldbelikeFrank[Liu],right?Frank.IfI,ifIdidnotsaythatIwould
beahundredtimesbetterthanIamnow,atleasttentimes;becauseIwasthenthefirstdeveloper.
Nobodyeverstartedthething.TherewasnotransactionpassinglowerManhattan.LowerManhattan,
withoutmefirstknowaboutitbecausethenIwasthenassociatedwithStandardAbstract.Icouldhave—I
couldhavebenefiteddoingrealestate,butIchoose—not,notreally,reallycompletelychoose—theguy
whorunthebank,JamesTang,causeduslose$30,000everymonth.Ilookatourasset,lookattheway
hewasrunning,absolutelyhavenoknowledgeofwhatbusinessconceptis.Isaid,“Ifhecontinuestorun
thethinghere,fortwoyearsthebankwouldtotallygodownthedrain.”Everymonth$30,000.Afterthree
monthsIjumpin.ThenIhavetoneglectmylawpractice.Peoplesay,well,you-you-you-you-younow
runthebank;yourdaughterhastopracticelawforthebank.Butwehavealawpracticebeforethebank.
Busy.Alright,itwasvery,verybusy.Butwediditbecausewewantedthebanktosucceed.SoIspentall
thetimetodothebank.TothisdayIdonottakeanysalaryfromthebank.Anyprobonoworkinvolving
thetown,soforth,Itoldmydaughter,“Vera,donotchargethem.Theywanttoformacemetery,you
know,doitforfree.”Iusedtocoversomanythings.Doitforfree,that’sokay.Goodthingswillbe
addeduntoyou.Whateveryougiveissomehoworanother,youwillgetbackonewayortheother.
Spirituallyor[laughs]financially.Yougetback.
Sothat’showwedidit.Sowhentherunstartedin2003,peoplesay,neihowding…Guandongrengang
ding[youaresocalm,theCantonesesay,socalm你好定，廣東人說定],means“youdon’tgetnervous.
Howcomeyouare“soding.”Hui-lingwouldsaytome,“Whatareyougonnado?They’regonnabe
run!”Sheaskedmeprogressively,“What’reyougonnado?”Isaid,“What’rewegonnado?”Isaid,“You
don’thaveto—ifyou—ifyou,ifpeoplewillgatherandyouhavearun.”Shesaid,“What’reyougonna
havearun?”andIsaid,“Youhavearun;youhavearun.”Youknow?[laughs]I-Ididmybesttoprepare
theinstitution.Wenevertookadividendout.Weletthebankbuildupitscapital;youknow,asmuchas
youcan.Andwenever,Inevergavethekidsasalaryincrease.Ofcoursetheydon’tneedit;wegivethem
realestate—[laugh],theyall…aboutthat.But,ifwedidnotdothat,ifIwasnotwhatIdecidedtostart,
youknow,thebank;Iwouldhavebeennervous.Idon’tknowifthebankcouldsurvive.Idoubtit.When
Icamebacktothebank,duringthefirstbankrun,theysay,“itwasarunthatyouhavenotseensincethe
Depression.”That’swhattheAssociatedPresssaid.Withinallthebranchespeoplewerepilingupthree
blocks,fiveblockslongbutwhenI,they-they-Ididnotknow.IwasinFlorida.WhenIcameback,the
AssociatedPress—afterI—wheneverIcameback,Iwentontheline,Itoldthepolice,givemeabullhorn
inthemorning,peoplestartedtogather,pileupwaaaayinthebackthere.Ithenannouncedtothem,“Iam
here.IdidnotrunawaywithCarolLim.”TheythoughtIrunawaywiththiswoman.WenttoChina,you
know,shewastheVicePresident,inchargeofoperation.Theythought,theysaid—Itook50million
dollarswiththewoman,wentbackanddisappearedinChina.Youknow.Thatwastherumor,right.So
whenIcamebackIsaid,“Hey,I’mhere!”Youknow,“Everythingshouldbefine,noproblem!”Right,so
thecrowddisappeared.I’mdissipated.
Thenextdaytheycomebacktodepositmoney[laughs]honestly!JustliketheBailey’s—but it’s not.So
that’showthestoryaboutBaileycomparewith“It’saWonderfulLife”[themovie]startedin2003.And
wewereunderlotsofpressure.WhenI—onmywaybackHui-lingwasdriving,Iwasinthecar trying to nderstandwhat’sgoingon,andIwasstillthink—nobigdeal,I’llhandleit,youknow[laughs].And
thentheregulatorcallmehesaid,“Tom!”hesaid,“Youknow,you-you-youshouldknowthatthisisnot
funanymore.Youareinrealdirestrait.”Isaid,“Why?”“TheregionalcommissionerofOTS[Officeof
ThriftSupervision]said.”Isaid,“What?”Hesaid,“FederalReserveBankdecidedtopullthedaycredit.”
Isaid,“What?!”“Theypulledthedaycredit!”Economics101willtellyou,whenthebankis
fundamentallysound,youneedthecash;theFederalReserveBankissupposedtoinjectcashtohelpthe
bankinthatsituation.“We’retotallysound!”Isay,“Wehavethemoney.”Youknow.What?“They
withdrawthedaycredit.”Isaid,“WellwhatabouttheFederalHomeLoan--”Isaidtomypeopletotake
theliquidassetbond,governmentbond,soforth,to,touseascollateraltogetthecash.Wellthat’s
normal.Who’sourcorrespondingbank?Former,regulator,FederalHomeLoanBank,beforetheywere
separatedtheywereFederalHomeLoanBank,right.SoIsaid,“Mr.Sung,FederalHomeLoanBank,
insteadofgivingyouahaircut,decidedtoonlygiveyou50%ofyoursecuritythatit’sworth.”Isaid,
“That’ssoridiculous!”Isaid,“Icantakethesecuritytomorrow,Icansellit!Whatiswrongwiththese
people.”SowhenIgettoNewYork—IrushbacktoNewYork,Idissipatedacrowdfortheliquiditywas
abigproblem;AssociatedPress,everynewsman,youknow,Iwasjustliketheuh,allthenewspapermen
wantedtotalktome.Theruntheneighbors,youknow,seensincetheDepression.SowewenttoCanal
Street,weusedtohaveabranchinCanalStreet.WelosttheCanalStreetbecausethislousyVancecase.
Wedidn’tlosealot,alot—shangyuanqi[傷元氣damagetheinnerqi][laughs].SoIwentthere.The
newspaperaskedme,say,“Mr.Sung,therumoristhatyouwentwithCarolLimwith50milliondollars
andwenttoChina.What’syouranswertothat?”Isaid,Ilookattheguy,Isaid,youknowwithasmile,I
said,“Listen,whoeverstartedthatrumordoesn’tknowhowtoughmywifeis.”[laughs]Everybody
laughs,sothatwas—thatwastheanswer.
AC:So--
TS:[overlapping]Thatwasthat.
AC:Ifyouhadtodoitagain,wouldyoustillstartAbacus—afterallthishappened—wouldyoustillstart
Abacusagainlikeyoudid?
TS:[overlapping]Well,yeah,peopleaskmethat.Youknow,Idon’t—I,youknow,myfatherisan
extremelycautiousperson.Iseehow,becauseofhisalwaysquestioningpeople,doubtingpeople,how
toughalifehehas.AndIswear,whenIgrowup,Isaid,“WhenIdobusinessIwillalwaystrustpeople.”
Asaresultoftrustingpeople,ofcourseIhadtheCarolLimepisode,right.AndthenIsaidIalwayswant
totrustpeople.ThiswayhereIfeeltobehappier,to-to-to,inmylife.AndIstillbelievethat.AndIsaid,
“Idon’twanttoregret—Ialwaysrememberthat,theConfuciushasasaying,right,‘Ifyou’retrulywise,
youhavenodoubts.’‘zhizhebuhuo,renzhebuchou’[知者不惑.’‘仁者不愁]’‘Ifyou’rereallykind,you
have—youdon’tworry.’Right?
AC:That’sgreat.So—[overlapping]
TS:[overlapping]‘yongzhebuju勇者不惧’Ifyou’rebraveyoushouldn’tprove(?)it—you’renot—you
shouldn’tbeafraid.
AC:That’sright.
TS:So,soIalwayssay,ifadecisionismadeandthatcomesout,that’sgod’swill.Sothat’sfine.IfI
weretoliveagain,toansweryourquestion,Iwouldprobablydothesame.
AC:That’samazing.SoweaskedChant—yourchildren,Chanterelleifshehadanyquestionsshewanted
ustoaskyou.Andshesaidshe’salwaysthoughtthatyouandMrs.Sungverymuchbelieveinthe
Americandream.Umandshesays,isthatstilltrue?Andhowmuchdidthatimpactyourdecisiontodo
whatyoudid?Yourlife?
TS:[sighs]Well,‘Americandream’isatermusedforpeoplewhocomehereasanimmigrant,somehow
theyfoundsuccess.Inmycase,ofcourse,well,people—myfamilydidhavesomeassets,butwhenIleft
Florida,itwasagainstmyfather’swill.Hedidnotwantmetoleave.Hewantedmetostay,andyou
know.ButIthoughttherightdecisionistoleavebecauseit’slimiting.SoIborrowed$230fromhis
friendandcametoNewYork.Idid-Ididnotuseonecentoffamilymoney.So,butImustsay,though,
knowingthatthereisalwaysaplacethatIcanreturn,gavemethatconfidencethatotherwiseIwouldnot
havewithoutafamilybasetosupportme.Soit’snottotallybyyou,right?Youmightnotmakethesame
decisionifyou’retotally[inaudible],but...Truthfully,Ihavenotusedanyofmyfamily’smoneyto,to
accomplishforwhatIhavemade—mostlyaccomplished.Butthat’sjust,inafigurativeway.Butwhether
ornotthedreamisaccomplished,Idon’thaveanyregret.I…ifyoubelieveinprayerIalwayssaythatI
thankgodnotbecausethefactthatthatIamabletohavesomecontrol,certainamountofassetsor
whatever,andofcoursetoalotofpeoplethat’snothingtoday.ButI…Ithankgodfortwothings.One,is
thatitgivemetheabilitytoanalyze.Youknow,the,youknow,again,goingbacktoConfuciussaying,
thatyouhavetobe,knowhowtofengshi[analyze分析],youknow.Thentocometoadecision.Andyou
havetobethankfulthatyourwealth,physically,thatyou—notwithstandingthetribulationandhardship
thatyougothroughinbusiness,butthat’ssortofexpected,right?You-younothingcomessmoothly.You
alwayshavesomething.Andwiththat,youhopethatyoucansomehowreturntothe-tothesocietyor
something.ThatyoucanbelieveandyoucansaythatIhavedonemybest.
AC:So,somaybethefinalquestion.Ifyouhadtosayonethingthatyoufeelsoproudtohave
accomplishedinyourlife,whatwoulditbe?
TS:Hm.Idon’tknow.OnethingthatIhaveaccomplishedinmylife?
AC:Ormaybeseveralofthemostproudaccomplishments.Becauseyou’vehadsomany,itmaybehard
tochooseone!
TS:[laughs]Yeah,inasenseyoucouldsayyouhavesomanyaccomplishments,hardtochooseone,or
youcansayyouhavesomanymediocreonesyoucannotfindagoodonetosay[laughs].Well…well,I
wouldsay,ofcourse,anybodyalwayssay,ifyourchildrengrowsupandtheyarenotondrugs,theyare
allself-supporting,theyareprofessionalpeople,theyareallhonorable,that’scertainlyan
accomplishment.That’snotmyaccomplishment—ifIsaythatmywifewouldsaythat’sher
accomplishment!WhichIhavetoreadilyagree,youknow[laughs].Butjokingly,Ialwayssaythat,“You
know,eventhoughit’syouraccomplishment,youknow,itwasveryhardformetooaswell.”Shesays,
“whatdoyoumeanitwashardforyoutoo?”Isaid,“Well,Ihadtosetanexampleofhowtoobeythe
mother,youknow?”[laughter]
Idon’tknow…it’sa—alotofpeoplecanpointtoalotofthingsthattheyaccomplishedalot.Yeah,I
alwaysthink,sometimesIalwaysfeellikeIcoulddomore[laughs]butIhaven’tdonemore.IhopeI—I
hopeIcoulddomore.Buttimeisshort.
AC:Wellyou’vecertainlydonealot.[toPW]Doyouhaveanyquestions,Patricia?
PW:Uh…IguessIwantedtoaskyou,youknow,howhaveyouseenChinatownchangeinyourtime
here?
TS:Yeah,that’sactuallyaninterestingstory.Itmaytakealittletimetotellyou.WhenIfirstcameinin
twothousandand…what,1964?Cominghere,Chinatownofcourseitwasaverysmallareaandthetotal
populationoftheUnitedStatesasIunderstandwhattheyweresayingwasaround270,000Chinese,that’s
all.Anditquicklygrewtobesomethinglike750,000aftertheimmigrationlawwaschangedtoallow
20,000Chinesetocomein.ThenthebigchangecameintoChinatown—thefirstbigchange,wasthefall
oftheVietnam.ThefallofVietnam,youknowthis,thehistorytheUnitedStatespulloutofVietnamand
alotofpeoplewhowasinVietnamweresupportingtheUnitesStatespolicyandamongthosewhowere
Chinese.AndthemisimpressionbytheAmericangovernmentatthattimewastheChinesecommunists
andtheVietnamcommunistswerefriends.ButnotrealizingtheVietnamhadthelotofborderconflict
withtheChinese.Yourememberthe7day—short,howmany?7weekswar?DengXiaopingwentinto
VietnamandwentallthewaytoHanoiandit’ssuchaspeed.Butthenhedecidedtopullout.Afterthat,
therewasoneincidentthathistorymaynotknow.Andit’sworthyofusChinesetoknow,isthat
VietnamesestarttopersecutetheChinese,buttheydiditinawaythat—anunusualway.Whattheydid
wastheyconfiscatedalltheresourcesoftheChinesewhodidnotwanttochangetheirname,youknow,
becomeVietnamese.Theyconfiscatedtheirresourcesandgavethemasmallfishingboatandletthemto
sailouttohighsea,andthatwasduringPresidentCarter’sdaywhenVietnamfallandPresidentCarter
becomethepresident,ifyourecall.SoChineseinthehundredsofthousandsandtheyweresayingahalf
millionChinesediedinopensea.Andatthatperiodoftime,thisisnotastory,andIspent8weeksagain,
stoppedmyregularpractice,andIdecidedthatthereisamissionthereforustoaccomplish.Weneedto
dosomethingtosavetheboatpeople—theChinesepeople.Iremembergoingintomeetingsandsoforth
andbecauseIknowimmigrationlaw—Ipracticeimmigrationlawhere,Iconsultedtheimmigration
lawyerandfindoutwhattheprotocolisforrefugee.Thefirstcountryoflanding,thecountrymustaccept,
andIwasthinkinghowwecanthenbringtheserefugeesonthehighseatotheislandofGuam.Andyou
wanttohearthatstory?
AC:FromGuam?
TS:Yeah,yeah.
AC:Wemaynothavemuchtime…
TS:Yeah,okay.That’sright.soyoudon’thave—I’llmakeitveryshort.So,anyway,wewentandtried
tofindshipstopickthemuponthehighseaandhavethemsailtoGuam.Andthatdidnot—wasnot
successfulbecausetheshipownerdidnotwanttopickthemupandgotoGuambecausehewasafraid
thattheAmericangovernmentmightholdhisships.Soeventhoughwecameoutwithaplantosend—go
parkitininternationalwaterandhavethefishing,smallboatssendthemintoGuam.Butanyway,itwasa
big,tensemoment.Peoplewerejustdying.MotherTheresawastheretryingtohelp.Reverend
Tanenbaum,famousJewishrabbiandacardinalhereinNewYorktryingtohelp.Andfinally,whocame
tohelp?Toansweryourquestionthere,tocomebacktoyourquestion.TheQuakerswentandpicketthe
WhiteHouse.Carterwasthenthepresident.Everyoneholdacandle.Theysaynothing;theyjustwalk
aroundtheWhiteHouse.AndCartercouldn’ttakeit.HesenttheSeventhFleet,pickedthemup.
Overnight,theChinesepopulationdoubled,700,000.Thatwasinanswertothesecondpartofyour
question.Sothat’sachangetoChinatown.Andthere,withthatgroupofVietnameserefugees,alotof
themendupinFlorida,inTexas,infishing…inwhichyoumaynotknowthestory.There’salotof
interestingstoryaboutthem,andalsoinconnectionwiththegangandextortion,becausetheseyoung
kidsweremilitarilytrained.SothatchangedthecharacteristicofChinatown.
The third major change was the Fujianese illegal immigrant came in. The Golden Venture people. If you connect that, the Sister Ping, Ping jie.
AC: Right.
TS: Yeah I remember Ping jie.
AC: Yeah, I read about her.
TS: You read about her, alright. Yeah, Ping jie. And he came in, he brought the people illegally to come in. And the Fujianese people dominated, so now even New York, Brooklyn, today they all become very successful prosper. They were willing to suffer for so characteristic of Chinatown changed greatly greatly because of that in capacity. So that is the story. In between that, there are a lot of other stories.
AC: Well thank you so much. And this is such a quick run-down of Chinatown history! I’m very impressed [laughs]. But thank you so much for the sharing your story with us. And I feel like this is just the beginning. There’s so much we need to understand [overlapping] and maybe come back for another interview.
TS: [overlapping] Well you’re very kind and you’ve very ambitious and I didn’t even show you the orphanage--
AC: Yeah.
TS: Did you see it?
AC: No, I took some pictures.
TS: Oh you took some pictures okay.
AC: Since we’re still recording [PW:Yes.] could you maybe open and show us a little bit? [overlapping] This way we have-
TS: Yeah, yeah, okay.
AC: I took some pictures of the table of contents.
TS: Oh ,I see. [papers rustling] That was during the time when he built, built the orphanage—I mean building the factory. See, this is bao ta [宝塔 treasured pagoda].
AC: When you went back were there two menschen [门神]? Were they still there? Or they’re gone? They’re two scary deities outside the front.
TS: I didn’t understand you.
AC: Oh,so you said when you were young you would run into the temple because you were afraid of two monsters--
TS: That’s right!
AC: They’re gone? [overlapping]
TS: They were no more. [speaks Chinese] so you see, these are the orphanage.This is my father, this is the head of the orphanage, and these are the orphans.
AC: Can you put your finger on your father?
TS: This is my father.
AC: Okay.
TS: Yeah. So all these are the orphans that he was trying to support and build.
AC: The thousand people?
TS: 900 some people, I don’t know how many people. We could gather as many---
AC:Wow.
TS: And this is the 宝塔 (pagoda), xian ling [apparition 現靈].[laughs]
AC: Xianling. The name of the company is right here.
TS:Yeah.
AC:Thank you.
TS:Apprentice?
AC:Yeah.
TS: Mmhmm.
AC: [reading] “send something Chongqing relief institute to enjoy work in the factory.”
TS: Yes.
AC: Wow. [overlapping]
TS: That was the — that’s satisfying for him because he was an orphan. And that--
AC: What an entrepreneurial way to--
TS: Yeah, and there was another one, that’s my father [papers rustling].
AC: In his office.In his factory office.
TS: Yeah, Chong qing general manager. This is him.
AC: Right. Do we havehis name? Do we have—can you write his—do you know his Chinese name?
TS: Sun Ruilin [孫瑞麟]. Ifyou write his—哎呀，我的中文真差 [Gosh, my Chinese is so bad!]. But anyway--
AC: Sun Rui--
TS: 孫是这个孫 [This is the Sun]…Rue…哎呀 [Aiee] Lin… 我都现在忘记掉 [I’ve forgotten]. You know what, downstairs at the entrance door--
AC: Uhhuh. There’s a plaque?
TS: There’s a wording: ning jing zhi yuan [寧靜致遠].
AC:Okay.I’ll go look at it.
TS:shi Sun Ruilin tide [It was authored by Sun Ruilin 是孫瑞麟提的]
AC:Okay.
TS:Yeah, I know, if it’s not spelled right I know. [pulling out another picture] These are the factory workers.[longpause] You know this is probably not all of them, but anyway, whatever he could gather at that time.
AC:And that’s the factory?
TS:That—that, yeah, that was zhu zong chang [hog bristle factory 豬鬃廠].
AC: So when you were to put this book together, in order to get special treaty merchant status [overlapping]
TS:Yeah so in order to apply for the treaty merchant status. That’s what they did. [overlapping]
AC:Wow so there are letters of recommendation, there are papers — financial papers to show he
[overlapping]
TS:Right—you see zhu zong [hog bristle,豬鬃] is in here, you know, he—how he dealt with the people in, in the— zhe shiz huzong [this is hog bristle 這是豬鬃]
AC:Oh my goodness! This is what the bristle looks like.
TS:Mm.This is black zhu zong. And here--
AC:It is really hard. So he brought some with him?
TS:Yeah.
AC:When he came to the States.
TS:This is white zhuzong, bai zhuzong [whitehog bristle白豬鬃].
AC:Wow.
TS:bai zhu zong.
AC:Oh my goodness.
TS:What—I don’t know, I’ve practiced immigration lawfor a while, I felt that I knew more than he did, the lawyer.[laughs]
AC:I’m sure you do!
TS: He never went through the problem I did in bringing people from the airplane [laughs]
AC: Well thank you so much , this is amazing—[overlapping]
TS: Oh you’re welcome. And say hello to Albert for me [overlapping]
END.
AC: I will! [recording stops]
