Your Rich Life: "Design Your Rich Life."

How to Get Rich 

Season 1, Episode 1 

Design Your Rich Life

Question: Have you ever wondered how much people make and how much they spend?

When you hear the word "rich," what comes to mind for you? 

Being able to do what you want to do without stressing over money. 

man 1: Money controls us. 

The numbers matter, always. 

woman 2: I don't want to feel guilty when spending money. 

I definitely spend a minimum of a half a million a year in shopping. 

man 1: It causes fights in our relationship. 

The more money she's made, the less valuable I am. 

Go work if it's such a big deal for you. 

man 2: I feel inferior.

I don't like that. 

man 1: But it doesn't have to be that way. 

( upbeat music playing )

 I'm Ramit Sethi. 

I'm a New York Times bestselling author, and I teach people how to live their rich life. 

I don't know how to start. 

Ramit: My philosophy is to spend extravagantly on the things you love, but cut costs mercilessly on the things you don't. 

Oh, wait, hold on now. 

I never really learned about money. 

I'm paying for it now. 

Ramit: You can't get a rich life without taking control of your money. 

You have a checking account for your dog and not a retirement account. 

You don't need to call me out like that, even though that's why you're here.

Ramit: I'll have six weeks to help people fix their financial problems. 

We're going to talk about credit card debt, buying a house, retirement, and even multi-level marketing schemes, and together, we'll uncover money secrets. 

You went from 100K... 

Now it's worth about 20,000. 

He never told me. 

You didn't know till now? 

( upbeat music continues ) 

Ramit: When it comes to money, people are desperate to hear the truth. 

I think my biggest fear is like, "What if I'm not fixable?" 

( sobbing ) 

I'm scared. 

I'm overwhelmed. 

I just want to do everything right. 

man: I don't think I can. 

( sniffles ) 

Ramit: I'll give them tools to fix how they think about money. 

Ramit: Design your rich life. 

Thank you so much. 

( cheering ) 

( uplifting music playing ) 

I went through a rollercoaster to finally get to this point. 

I know how to talk about money now. 

I'm not scared of it. 

If you really, really want to make a change, don't give up.

Ramit: No matter how much you earn, I know you can live your rich life. 

Ramit: To the rich life. 

all: To the rich life! 

Ramit: Let me teach you how to get rich. 

producer 1: Hi, Ramit. 

( upbeat music playing ) 

producer 2: Let's do it! 

producer 3: Slate. Prime mark. 

Have you ever wondered how much people make? 

How much they spend? 

What is in their checking account? 

I have in my hand the personal information of Matt and Amani. 

I've never met 'em, I don't know anything about 'em, but I love seeing this information because it tells me where they spend their money, what they prioritize, and even who they are. 

I'm going to start with an Amazon credit card. 

They had a balance of 3,000 bucks last month. 

A lot of random stuff. 

A Fisher-Price jumper, so probably they have children. 

We have Capital One. 

The balance last month was $1,300. 

Chase Sapphire Card. 

On this one, the balance was $4,000. 

I'm looking now at their checking account.

A checking account leaves lots of clues. It's like fingerprints everywhere. 

And it tells me a lot. 

In this month, they contributed $24,000 to this checking account and they spent $27,000. 

They spent more than they made. 

This is a huge red flag for me. 

Oh, wow. I see overdraft protection. 

Overdraft protection means you spent more than you had in your checking account. 

If you're making $24,000 in a month, you do not need to be paying these kinds of fees. 

So they've got the 401(k), balance of $94,000, 88% stocks.

This is a typically aggressive portfolio. 

It tells me they're probably on the younger side. 

This is good. 

I'm happy to see it. 

I'm excited to meet Matt and Amani. 

I get a chance to take all these numbers and all these guesses I have about the clues, and see if it lines up with who they really are. 

( upbeat music playing ) 

Amani: Hi! 

Ramit: Hi. Hi, I'm Amani. 

Amani, nice to meet you. 

Amani: This is my daughter Delilah.

My name is Amani. 

And I'm Matthew. 

Amani: We've been married for almost six years now, and we have two beautiful daughters.

You want to show him around? 

Can you give me a tour of your house? 

She's so proud of her house. 

( chuckles ) 

producer 2: How are you feeling about having someone intervene? 

It's so weird. 

( chuckles ) 

And very uncomfortable. 

Because it's weird to have this stranger that you're telling all your vulnerabilities and weaknesses and personal things to. 

Wow. 

What a beautiful house. 

Amani: Thank you. 

I like your house. 

Ramit: We have a high-income couple here.

The big misconception is that if you make a lot of money, you're gonna magically know how to manage your money. 

But that is not true. 

I'm pretty confident that one of the things we're gonna talk about is, where's all this money going? 

If that's the case, I think I can help them. 

So, how did you meet? 

I'm so curious. 

Tinder. ( chuckles ) 

Ramit: Really? 

Yeah. 

Matthew: Originally, yeah. 

Amani: Oh, and it's even crazier.

 We eloped, like, in Vegas, during Spring Break. So. ( chuckles )

 How long had you dated before you eloped? 

Three months, right? 

Yeah. 

Ramit: Wait, what? 

Three months. 

( baby coos )

Amani: Wanna put her for a nap? 

Yeah. 

Okay. 

Come on, baby, let's go. 

Bye. 

Amani: I'm an account executive at a software company. 

( upbeat music playing ) 

You know, I'm lucky to be making six figures. 

I'm taking care of my family, and I work very hard to provide the best life I can for them. 

Matthew: I was a traveling electrical engineer. 

But now I'm a stay-at-home dad. 

( upbeat music playing ) 

Matthew: The wind is blowing so hard.

 We have to hide from the wind. 

Yeah! The time of travel just, you know, didn't correspond well with... with my responsibilities at home. 

Okay, so how big of a problem is finances between you two? 

Money is how... how this brain works. 

( Amani scoffs ) 

Ramit: Meaning what? 

I'm in sales. 

So if there's a financial problem, it is the root of all evil. She'll come in yelling.

I can't sleep if I'm stressed about money. 

Why? 

I end up avoiding it, like, not wanting to talk about it. 

Um, and then we end up fighting about it. 

So, I end up avoiding it because I'm literally taking care of him, my two daughters, myself. 

I have so much expenses. 

I'm only, like, 27 years old, and I feel like I'm carrying the world on my shoulders. 

I feel like my finances control me, while I'm supposed to be controlling finances. 

I never know every month, like, how much really I'm spending. 

Some months I'm in negative, where my expenses are more than the money I'm bringing. 

That's where I fall... I fall to credit cards. 

Half of my pay is, you know, commissions, and some months it's great, some months it's not. 

It varies. It goes up and down. 

Then I keep using credit cards until, uh, the money picks back up and I can even out again. 

Ramit: All right, Matthew, I want to hear from you. 

What are the financial challenges between the two of you? 

The more money she's made, the less valuable I am.

That's a very strong statement. 

It's... That's how I feel, though. 

( Amani scoffs ) 

When I was working, I had the freedoms to... do the things that I wanted to with my own money. 

Okay, and you were working as what? 

I'm... I'm an electrical engineer. 

An electrical engineer? 

Matthew: Correct. 

Okay. 

And so, what changed? 

Matthew: When I stopped working, I didn't intentionally say that I'm going to be the stay-at-home dad, but, I mean, we more and more relied on me being at home. 

Okay. 

That sounds like a lot of responsibility. 

It is, it is. 

I work harder now than I did when I was an engineer. 

Well... And I get less respect and less reward. 

What does that mean? 

That I literally have absolutely no decisions in anything to do with money. 

Ramit: Like what? What does that mean?

Nothing. I mean, you name it. 

Amani: I'm working very hard. 

If you're gonna spend something, I don't want to be surprised by it. 

I want to know what it is and why we're spending it. 

She definitely devalues what I do for the house, rather than what I used to do for employment. 

Do you trust him? 

( sighs ) 

Amani: Financially, or... 

Financially. 

No, I don't. 

( pensive music playing ) 

He hasn't proven himself to me yet, where I can trust him financially.

Ramit: Sorry, just a second. 

How many kids did I see you had when I walked in the door? 

I mean, you got to trust somebody to have kids. 

But women have been doing it forever. 

Women who are stay-at-home with kids, they have to ask for money, they have to ask for allowance, for access. 

Matthew: Honey, a lot of the women that are in my position end up, like, miserable, and getting out of their relationship. 

And I tell you these things... 

What about the ones that don't? 

Amani: I'm the one who works, so it's okay for me to decide, like, who has access, who does not. 

I quit my job so you... 

Women do it too for their children. 

I understand. 

And they're not cut off. 

( pensive music playing ) 

I mean, I've made a lot of sacrifices so you could make this money, honey. 

Amani: How? 

So compensate me for that. You won't.

Do you two have separate accounts? 

At the time, when I worked... 

Amani: Yeah. We have separate... ...I had a joint account for us. 

Amani: For bills. 

Matthew: Then I quit my job. 

No. 

Ramit: One at a time. 

Let me try again. 

Do you have separate accounts? 

We have separate accounts. 

We do, yes. 

Ramit: Okay. 

You ever have a joint account? 

Matthew: Yes. 

When I supported us, we had a joint account. 

I'm gonna check out of this conversation because I've heard this, like, 10,000 times already just today. 

Matthew: That's the end of the conversation. 

( murmurs )

 I'm just tired. 

It's, like, emotionally draining. 

You fight about money, you spin about money, and then what ends up happening? 

Amani: I get defensive. 

Ramit: And then? 

I get mad. 

She... Eh, eh. 

Let me just talk to her. 

Trust me, you're not doing yourself any favors by cutting in. Trust me.

Matthew: I don't understand why she doesn't understand what I mean. 

And I don't understand why you're like, "Oh, when I worked I felt this and this." 

Well, then, go work then if it's such a big deal for you. ( scoffs ) 

You both have a lot to say, and I feel like you've said it to each other a lot. 

Has it gotten you anywhere? 

No. ( chuckles ) 

( pensive music playing ) 

Ramit: We have a reverse role situation here. 

There are gender expectations, there are income expectations, and there's a lot left unspoken. 

My process is to bring those unspoken beliefs to the surface.

Once they're there, then we can deal with them. 

Can I get your permission, both of you, to maybe help you see a different way of looking at this? 

I have a journal that I would like you to work on together. 

Amani: Mm-hmm. 

Okay. 

The first section is "Design Your Rich Life." 

What's my rich life? 

Amani: Mm-hmm. 

What's your rich life? 

What could our rich life be? 

I wonder how long it's been since you really articulated that vision together. 

Here's the journal. 

Awesome. 

Thank you. 

Ramit: For both of you. 

Nice. 

That's just the first of many steps that we're gonna take together. 

I give everyone homework when I first meet them. 

That's a beautiful, gentle way to get people comfortable talking about money. 

Thank you so much. 

We'll talk very soon. 

Yes, thank you. 

Amani: Thank you so much. 

So the first step I want them to do is to start talking about money, getting positive with it, dreaming. 

This is a great opportunity for them to start asking questions instead of judging each other. 

Amani: How could you say all these things about me? 

Matthew: Aw, man. 

When you hear the world "rich," what comes to mind for you? 

Like you have to be eating fancy food at some long table, being driven around by a chauffeur to your country club? 

But I think "rich" means something very different.

"Rich" can be picking up your kids from school every day. 

Or traveling three months a year. 

Your rich life is yours. 

( uplifting music playing ) 

When my wife and I started talking about money, it got a little heated. 

And I went online and I was looking around for advice, like, "How are you supposed to talk about money?" 

And all of the advice said, "Have the conversation." 

I was like, "What conversation?" 

What... I just want to know what to say. 

I wanted to show people what these conversations actually sound like. 

So I started a podcast, and you hear real people having real money conversations. 

I wanna take you behind the scenes. 

I actually have a couple that I'm ready to talk to on my podcast. 

Donnell and Monique. 

( upbeat music playing )

 They are 37 and 40 years old.

 They have three kids and one grandchild. 

Monique says, "Our biggest challenge is that we want to buy a house, but we had credit hiccups." "We need to work on our splurging habits." 

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. 

"I know we can afford a mortgage payment..."

Notice the fixation on a house. 

( whispers ) "We need a mortgage. 

We need to buy a house." 

"It's the American Dream, right?" 

"That's what everybody told me." 

( breathes deeply ) 

It drives me crazy how many of us believe that if we don't own a home, we are failures. 

This is something I want to change people's beliefs around. 

If you want to buy a house because you want to decorate, or because you want a certain school district, you have my blessing. 

But you need to run the numbers, you need to understand what your other options are, and I don't want you making decisions because somebody somewhere told you that you're a failure if you don't own a house. 

In fact, renting can be a great financial decision, if that's what your rich life is. 

Now let's look at the numbers. 

They make $93,000 total in their household income. 

Wow, this is interesting. 

She has $400 in savings, $350 in stocks, and $8,000 in a 401K. 

Donnell has about $1,000 in stocks and 500 bucks in savings. 

So already I'm going, what's with the obsession about owning a house if you have a relatively small amount in savings? 

It doesn't make sense to me. 

Total debt... Uh-oh. 

Oh no. 

Monique has $7,000 in credit card debt, $88,000 in student loans, $27,000 in auto loans, and 1,500 bucks in collections. 

Okay, that's a lot of debt. 

Over $100,000.

Donnell has $63,000 in student loans, $4,500 in credit cards, and $3,800 in various collections. 

The numbers, they don't tell me the whole story. 

I need to understand where they come from. 

What is this idea about home ownership? 

What do they really want in their rich life? 

Who knows? 

We'll find out. 

Let's get Monique and Donnell on the line. 

automated voice: Recording in progress. 

Donnell and Monique, here we go. 

All right! 

How you doing? 

Hi! 

Hi, how are you? 

Does it feel weird to talk about these numbers like you've probably never talked about before? 

I think it's gonna be more weird talking with him about it. 

Really? 

Why is that? 

'Cause we don't talk about it. 

Yeah. 

In the last month or two, can you think of a time where you were not on the same financial page?

 Um... 

I think we're... No, I'm lying. We're not always on the same page. 

( all chuckle ) 

What do you both do for work? 

Donnell is in retail. 

I quit my job in September to pursue my business full-time. 

I do woodwork. 

Donnell: Custom woodwork. 

Monique: Custom woodwork. 

Whatever you need. 

If you can picture it, I can build it. 

Ramit: Okay, cool. 

So, you both mentioned one big thing that you both have as a goal. 

What is that thing? 

Buying a house. 

Buying a house. 

Ramit: What's that about? 

Donnell: I want to own a home, where the kids have somewhere to come. 

I want them to have, like, what I had growing up. Like, a home base.

Okay, so how do you think that I can help you? 

I... I don't know. I just hope any and every way you can help... 

Uh, I really do, because I... I look at it like, how can you help somebody that's broke not be broke? 

Like, so... I don't... I don't know. 

I appreciate you being so candid. 

It sounds like you wanna learn some skills about what to do with your money. 

I'm getting excited for when we get a chance to meet in person. 

All right? 

I hope so. 

I'll see you soon. 

( upbeat music playing )

Ramit: I had a great time talking to Monique and Donnell on my podcast. 

But there's nothing like meeting them in real life. 

That's gonna help me understand how they think about money, how they spend their money, and how they can use it to live a rich life. 

Move. 

Monique: Right now I'm nervous. 

I changed my mind. 

I don't want to do this anymore. 

producer: You guys, how did you find out about the show? 

Donnell: Um, I got an email.

 I found out when they called to ask him questions. 

( chuckles )

producer: You didn't know? 

No. 

I never tell her if I fill out for something. 

But I don't think I really understood this particular show. 

( chuckles ) 

You guys wanna know stuff. 

Like, y'all wanna go deep, y'all wanna ask questions. 

And you're like, "Do I really wanna tell?" 

( upbeat music playing ) 

Hello. 

Monique: Sorry, you caught me working. 

Ramit: Is this the woodworking? 

Monique: Yes. 

Well, I remember from when we talked.

Working on an order. 

Ramit: What is this, uh, called? 

A scroll saw. 

Oh, I can't wait to see more. 

Hello. 

Hey. I'm Ramit. Nice to meet you. 

Oh! What's going on? How are you? 

producer: Finish this sentence for me. 

Conversations about finance and money are normally considered... 

Oh, I know the word, but I can't think of it. 

What, "taboo"? 

Yes. 

What are the two things you wanna get out of this? 

For me and Donnell to have better communication about money. 

You don't go on a first date and say, "What's your bank account like?" 

Like, "You got a 401(k)?" ( clicks tongue ) Like, no, you don't do that. 

Like, you know, so, it is a sensitive subject. 

( upbeat music playing )

We've been married for 17 years. 

She doesn't talk about her checking account, I don't talk to her about mine. 

No idea what's holding us back. 

No idea what's holding us back. 

We... Oh, sorry. 

Like... No, go ahead. 

Every time we think we're doing something right... 

Donnell: Mm-hmm. ...it's like, somebody throws a ball at us and knocks us off. 

Bam! Right in the face. And you be like, "Yo!" 

What's your rich life, now that you've had some time to think about it? 

I think for me, to be able to pay down my debt so that we'll be able to get the house that we want. 

I think being comfortable, you know. 

To... to be at a certain level with money. 

Love it. Monique, you used to make 50K...

Monique: Yes. 

...but you switched to woodworking, which I saw coming in here. 

That was cool. 

So, how much does your business make? 

In February, I made like $2,500... 

Ramit: Okay. ...and then this month, I'm up to like $8,000. 

Whoa! 

Monique: Yeah. 

Ramit: That's a big jump. 

It is. 

Am I the only one who's excited about $8,000 in a single month? 

I did great, but that doesn't mean that I'll do great next month. 

You're never gonna be happy about money... unless you change the way you think about it. 

Yeah. 

Donnell, I had you making $78,000. Yes. 

Ramit: You both make a good income. 

It's impressive. 

You say that, but I don't see that, like... 

Where do you think the money's going?  I'll tell you right now.

If I remember correctly, you had about 200K of debt. 

Yeah. 

Like some of my bad habits from my personal finances still come into my business finances. 

Ramit: Like what? 

Monique: Like, I've been doing really good in my business, so I did just buy a purse. ( chuckles ) 

How much did this purse cost? 

Monique: Before taxes? 

$1,350.

Ramit: Wow. 

I said the same thing, "Wow." 

( pensive music playing ) 

I just like nice things, unfortunately. 

I don't do it on purpose. 

I can look at it and it'll be like $1,500, and I'll pick that one instead of the $20 one. 

But not knowing the price. 

I just... I like what I like. 

You know how I justified it? 

It's a purse in a purse, so I got two bags for the price of one. 

You didn't buy that because you get two bags. 

It's not a bargain. It's a luxury product. 

You're gonna make up any reason to justify it, and you did. 

But in order to live a rich life, you have to be honest. 

It's common in society to judge people who buy expensive bags. 

I don't. 

If you like a bag, and if you can afford it, I want you to get it. 

But one of the things I'm gonna teach Monique and Donnell is how to know when you are ready to buy it. 

I want to build my credit score back. 

I've seen my credit go down to a 409. 

And then when I get like that, I... I just kind of give up. 

I'm like, "Whatever." 

Ramit: That's common. 

You see the trap they got you in.

Monique: Yeah. 

And you willingly put yourself in it. 

Yes, absolutely. 

On a day-to-day basis, nobody cares about their credit score. 

But it becomes very important when you make a major purchase, like a car or a house. 

Imagine someone who has a good credit score, goes to buy a car, maybe they pay 4%. 

Somebody who has terrible credit might have a 13% interest rate that will cost you thousands of dollars more. 

720 to 850, excellent. 

Double thumbs up, you're doing great. 

Anything below 630, that's the danger zone. 

You are paying a lot more because of your poor credit.

Hopefully you can help me understand why we keep going through the same pattern. 

Like, for years. 

Doing the same thing, trying different little things, and we still end up in the same boat. 

There's almost always a way, but you have to go through the fire. 

Donnell: Hmm. 

Ramit: That's the hardest thing of all. 

That will be your challenge. 

Let's see here. 

How many checking accounts? 

I have five now. 

And how many savings accounts? 

I have one with each checking account. 

So... five. 

You have five savings accounts? 

Monique: Mm-hmm. 

Ramit: Donnell, what about you? 

I probably got about nine, ten accounts. 

That's just checking and savings. 

Ramit: Why? 

Who taught you this? 

I feel as though if I spread my money around, it makes it look like I have more. 

Like if I go buy fries, and I have the fries sitting here, and then I'm like, "Hang on a second, I know how to have more fries." 

"I'm gonna take some fries and put them in the bathroom." 

That's a lot of fries!

But who wants bathroom fries? 

Yeah, exactly! 

Exactly! 

( both chuckle ) 

Ramit: Twenty accounts is too many. 

You start off in your early 20s, you've got one checking account, one savings account, don't know why you have this credit card, and suddenly you wake up and you're burdened and overwhelmed with all these accounts. 

You don't even know how they fit together. 

We need to fight for simplicity. 

Donnell, you mention that you make money, but it doesn't feel like it. 

That's because it's spread all over the place.

Your accounts... 

Donnell: Mm-hmm. 

...there's just too many! 

It's... it's stressing me out, so we got to fix that. 

I'm gonna show you how to treat your money, and if you stick with me, I think the way you think about it is gonna be completely different. 

Okay. 

I look forward to it. 

Ramit: Okay. 

I have a little bit of homework for you. 

Organize your accounts, so that you know exactly where your money is flowing. 

Yes. 

Doable. 

That's how we get started. 

In every couple, two people come into a relationship with different philosophies on money. 

Most people don't even know what their philosophy on money is. 

I wanna start by simplifying all of their accounts and their credit cards. 

Then I wanna get them on a plan to pay that debt off. 

Something where they go... ( deep sigh of relief ) ..."I can do this." 

And that makes it so much easier to keep moving forward. 

( upbeat music playing )

I've been chatting about your book with some of my friends. 

Ramit: Oh, cool. 

I'm trying to figure out how to describe you. 

It would be easy to call me a financial advisor, but I go much deeper than that. 

Nobody wants to sit around and talk about money because they think money is a negative thing. 

I listen to what your rich life is, I wanna know what you love to spend money on. 

Celebrate, let's start off with something positive. 

Some of us spend on whatever's in front of us. 

But most of us don't actually understand why we treat money the way we do. 

That's where money psychology comes in. 

Money psychology is about the way you grew up with money and those invisible scripts that you absorbed. 

And once you can understand your money psychology, you can master it, and you can change it. 

I help people earn money, manage their money, and master their money psychology. 

( upbeat music playing ) 

People hit me up on social media all the time to ask their money questions. 

And I recently got a message from a young woman named Nicole, who is worried about her mother Nathalie's spending habits. 

Okay, Nathalie. Ah, first thing, right off the bat. 

(Ramit zooming into an account statement on his computer screen)

You see this logo? Chase Private Client. 

That means that she's probably wealthy, or comes from a wealthy family. 

She has a $25,000 deposit from a trust. 

Okay, maybe she has a trust that her family was a part of. We'll see. 

Okay, this is pretty interesting. 

So she started the month with $4,000 in savings, and by the end of the month, she was left with $5.04. 

Her spending seems crazy.

Nathalie has a hundred bucks in her checking account, and she just casually deposited $374,000. 

That's a good month. 

She withdrew $37,000, as we all do on a given month. 

And then withdrew $271,000. 

She lives paycheck to paycheck. 

Let's look at some of this spending. 

Boy, there's a lot of expenses here. 

Okay. 

You know, like this hotel in Europe, $700. 

Let's see what else we got. 

Let's take a look at her mortgage. 

She's got $957,000 left on her mortgage. 

She's paying about 5,000 bucks a month. 

Okay. 

Right now, the interesting thing is that she gets these big cash infusions. 

So I'm curious if she's the executor of her family's estate, or something like that.

I wanna know where the money's coming from. 

( "Consumer Couture" by Ross Gilmartin playing ) 

♪ I came, I c... c... came to party ♪ 

♪ Roll up in my Ferrari I bring the baddest... ♪ 

Ramit: Rodeo Drive is fascinating. 

We've all seen it in the movies. 

It's the land of excess. 

You have Rolls-Royces and Bentleys everywhere. 

You have some of the most expensive clothing in the world. 

And the people-watching is absolutely amazing. 

Oh, look at this. 

tour guide: What you guys filming, man? 

You'll see it soon. 

tour guide: I doubt it. 

( both chuckle ) 

Nathalie? Hi, bonjour. 

Hi, how are you? 

Welcome to Beverly Hills. 

Nice to meet you. 

Can I, uh, swing around? 

Please, come over. 

Wow, all right. 

( Nathalie chuckles ) 

Now this is a car. 

( chuckles ) 

Nathalie: You like it? 

Ramit: Oh, I love it. 

So, we're here at Rodeo.

All I know is that you wanted to meet here. 

Why? 

Tell me. 

Nathalie: Because this is my favorite place. 

I just love fashion. 

Growing up in Paris, I grew up with fashion. 

( upbeat music playing ) 

I definitely spend a minimum of a half a million a year in shopping. 

I believe money's meant to be spent. 

If I want to burn it, it's up to me, but I don't think you can burn money. 

It's illegal. 

Okay, take it back. No burning money. 

( upbeat music continues ) 

So, Nathalie, where are we going right now?

 We're out of Rodeo, I see. 

Yes, so now we're going to my dream project. 

So, I opened a French rotisserie. 

You had a restaurant or were building one? 

No, no, I had it. 

I had it, it was open. 

Wow. 

It was... I branded it. 

I must say, I'm very proud of myself because I went into a business, like, blindfolded. 

I knew nothing, nothing about this business. 

But I believed. 

I had a vision that this business will have, like, a line around the corner. 

And it would have happened, but COVID hit... 

Ramit: Mmm. ...

and it put me upside down.

Ramit: When you started this restaurant, tell me about the finances behind it. 

Were you thinking this will be very profitable? 

How'd you think about it? 

Uh, to me, I saw this a billion-dollar company. 

Why? 

Because it's not about one restaurant. 

I saw it as a franchising. 

I saw Coco Queen being everywhere in the world. 

That billion-dollar comment is a little bit of a red flag. 

For 99.999% of people, they are never gonna have a billion-dollar restaurant. 

So I'm starting to suspect that she might be more of a dreamer than someone who deals with the numbers. 

Ramit: How much money do you think you put in? 

Nathalie: I do know how much money, let me tell you. 

I thought I was going to put $250,000, this was the budget. 

And I was so busy building this, that I didn't even see how many checks I was writing. 

Later, 1.5 million. 

From $250,000 to 1.5 million? 

Don't ask me how. 

Wait, of course I have to ask you how. 

Don't ask. 

I don't even know how. 

Ramit: But that's six, seven times more. 

Nathalie: I know. 

At 1.5 million, when did you realize, "Uh-oh, this is in trouble"? 

When I couldn't pay $40,000 overhead every month anymore, and I'm like, "How much more can I get in the hole?"

Yeah. 

You know? 

I, like, basically my house had no mortgage, so I mortgaged my house to do this venture. 

But I didn't realize it will cost me so much. 

Oh wow! I don't believe, they... they colored the building! 

This one? 

That was my building. 

Ramit: The blue one? 

Nathalie: It wasn't blue! 

They took it away! 

It's a beautiful building. 

They took off my sign. 

Great location. 

Nathalie: It was amazing location. 

I mean, when I grew up, we had no money. 

My father was very rich. My mother was very poor. 

Were they married or divorced? 

No, divorced. 

So I grew up with my mother, which was very poor. 

So I saw two sides of life. 

And I... I knew, I remember, I said, "I don't want to be poor." 

And my mom's like, "Why? We have God, we have food, and a roof over our head." 

I said, "But life is not just about that." I had dreams. 

You know, of course, money's not everything, everything, but money brings comfort. 

Ramit: Mmm. 

Did it change for you, comfort, when...   From when you were young, until now? 

Yes, of course. I have more now. 

Mm-hmm. 

But, uh I could have had way more if I was more reasonable. 

Reasonable? 

Yes, like if I didn't spend as much. 

Okay. 

Now I'm starting to understand why Nicole asked me to come in here. 

Nathalie spends a lot of money, but what's more troubling to me is the way she doesn't really respect it. 

Being knowledgeable about money, being confident about money, having a vision of a rich life. 

All basic things that I'm gonna create with Nathalie. 

( engine roars ) 

( upbeat music playing ) 

Nathalie: Welcome to my house. 

Ramit: Thank you.

Nathalie: Bienvenue.

 ( Nathalie chuckles ) 

As the French will say. 

It's too early for me to tell how sophisticated Nathalie is with business, but I do know her spending has had an effect on her daughter. 

You must be Nicole. 

Hi. Yes, I'm Nicole.

Ramit. Nice to meet you. 

I've seen my mom throw away a lot of her money. 

She'll really quickly and really easily buy an expensive handbag or a ton of clothing. 

And then it was difficult for her to pay for my college tuition. 

We had a nice drive today in your mom's second home, Rodeo Drive. 

( Ramit chuckles ) 

( chuckles ) 

Sounds about right. 

A lot of people come in and they say, "Stop spending." 

That's the first thing. 

And have you ever told your mom that she should stop spending? 

All the time. 

Ramit: Does it work? 

No. Not at all. 

( Ramit chuckles ) 

She's gonna spend, whether she has the money or it's tight. 

She'll find a way to spend the money. 

How much do you have in savings? 

In savings right now, I don't... ( chuckles ) 

I looked at your bank account. 

Nathalie: Yeah. 

You have this much.  🤚 

What's that? 

Not five thousand, five dollars. 

In the savings account. 

So, where does your income come from now? 

Uh, now it comes from child support. 

Child support. 

Nathalie: Yes. 

And how much is that per month? 

It's $25,000. 

Ramit: $25,000? Okay. 

Yeah.

Ramit: Okay, that makes sense. 

And how much does it cost, just to live for you, on a given month? 

With this house, it costs a lot. 

Probably like $15,000. 

$15,000 just to keep the lights on? 

Yeah. 

But I'm selling my house now. 

Ramit: This house? 

Yes. 

Okay, why now? 

You know, it's very big for me, and it's a lot, a lot of maintenance. 

Ramit: Okay.

 Your situation is different than a lot of people's, so, the usual advice doesn't apply to you. 

But I have a feeling that deep down, there is something you want to change. 

Right now, you have a great life. 

Yeah. 

It's a rich life for you today. 

Nathalie: Yes. But you're so young. 

So, what else? There's got to be something more.

Otherwise, I wouldn't be here. 

Yes. 

I think I need a lot of help with the business side, to start it again and do it right this time. 

Because I know the potential of this business. 

And where will you get the money to launch another restaurant from? 

Nathalie: I don't know. 

I'll have to see. 

Ramit: What do you love more, buying another dress, or starting the restaurant? 

Starting the restaurant, I think, for sure. 

Really? 

Nathalie: Yeah, for sure. 

Because the restaurant will buy me a hundred dresses. 

Now that's a good way to think about it. I like that! 

I don't think Nathalie has ever thought of herself as someone who doesn't have the money. 

But she doesn't have the money to start another restaurant. 

She lives paycheck to paycheck! 

Yeah, she's got a big paycheck, but she's still spending everything she makes.

 If she wants to make the restaurant a reality, then she's gonna have to cut her spending and put in the work to make sure that this restaurant can thrive. 

Ramit: All right, I have a bit of homework for you. 

Okay. 

Ramit: It's easy. 

No numbers. 

Homework. 

I want you to just start here. 

Nathalie: Okay, number one? 

Ramit: "Design Your Rich Life." 

So if it's a restaurant, what does it look like when you open the restaurant? 

How much does it cost? 

Yeah, that I don't know. 

It's okay. 

I don't need you to run a million financial models. 

I don't need that right now. 

Nathalie: Yeah. 

But I do want you to be more specific about the numbers. 

Okay. 

Ramit: How's it sound? 

Sounds really good.

Ramit: I'll hand this to you. 

Nathalie: Thank you. 

It matches your outfit. 

Yes, it does. 

( chuckles ) 

Ramit: Yes. 

She's a puzzle. 

She has a shield around her. 

It's almost like this impenetrable bubble. 

And I don't want to pop it, not that. 

What I do want is just to poke a slight hole in it and connect with her. 

Nicole: I hope you listen to him. 

This is a... 

Honestly, this is a good opportunity. 

I agree. 

Don't blow it. Do not blow it, my darling. 

Like all the money. 

Pshh! 

I've worked with people like Nathalie in the past. 

They make a lot of money, and sometimes they think that the usual problems don't apply to them. 

It turns out she receives child support payments every month. 

If that went away, then it would be catastrophe for her. 

Like, she's got nothing to fall back on. 

I want Nathalie to have control over her own financial future. 

So here's my game plan.

I want to help her get her spending under control. Next, I want to talk more about her restaurant business idea with her. I think I can help, but it probably won't be a billion-dollar restaurant. And finally, I want to change her money psychology. This part's gonna be hard for Nathalie. Nathalie: See you soon. Thank you. Bye. Nicole: Thank you. Have a good evening. ( upbeat music playing ) Donnell: About to do the homework. All right, so we got my pay, plus Monique's pay. Seven thousand a month going into the checking account. We've never done homework. Like homework as far as our financials. Monique: We've never done... No. I didn't even do homework in college. I passed with my personality. Like, so... You did. I did. All right, this is our plan. Hopefully you'll see that we are pushing through, 'cause... we have goals. So, we'll talk to y'all. Hashtag bathroom fries. ( upbeat music playing ) So I started my homework. It's very nice, this journal, actually, so I put my name, my company name. And, uh, I started designing my rich life. I don't like doing homework, I'm not gonna lie, but, you know, I got to make Ramit happy. ( chuckles ) The idea to write in my journal and creating my rich life is exciting and motivating. I mean, money motivates me. 

Always has, will always do. 

In a good way. 

( upbeat music playing )

So you're on. Matthew: All right, "Fill in the blank." Um, "How would you spend it tonight in a rich life?" A thousand dollars. Oh, I would pay bills with it. I need it. Pay bills. I would probably buy myself... some nice hiking gear. 

Okay. What's next? 

Um... 

Relationship. 

Relationships? 

I mean, it's part of the travel if I want to start to build our relationship.

You don't spend money on our relationship, unless it's all for you... 

My God! 

Like what? What do you want? 

Well, I mean... 

Traveling, for me, is part of building our relationship, and, like, growing a relationship. 

But... 

That's why I spend the money I spend. 

Honey, that's your love language. 

Okay, what is your love language? 

Absolutely nothing, because you ain't bought me sh¡t. 

Because I take care of the kids and if I spend your money you get pissed, that's why. 

I'm going to go if you're going to go back to being an ass! 

You know, I mean, we talked about you being with the kids. 

Amani: You can decide.

All right. 

That's where we go... And we don't do it together. 

Amani: Are you gonna go back to being an ass to me on the show? 

( Matthew sighs ) 

Matthew: Just cancel the show. 

( Matthew walks towards the camera and turns it off )

( recorder chimes ) 

( "Measure" by Silken Moon playing ) 

♪ Do we talk about it Or do we dance around it? ♪ 

♪ We both know what's up ♪ 

♪ Keep doing what you're doing Keep it moving ♪ 

♪ Are you getting The real measure of me? ♪ 

( song fades )

(Listen to the song, click here )

Episode 2 continues here click "Financial Hot Water" 

Never Too Old: Retirement would be 'boring', says 93-year-old cardiologist still working full-time

Singapore ❤️ 🇸🇬 

Never Too Old: Retirement would be 'boring', says 93-year-old cardiologist still working full-time

What drives one of Singapore's pioneering heart specialists? In the first part of a series on elderly who choose to spend their golden years working, CNA speaks to Dr Charles Toh Chai Soon about his enduring love for medicine.

Never Too Old: Retirement would be 'boring', says 93-year-old cardiologist still working full-time

Dr Charles Toh Chai Soon, one of Singapore's pioneering cardiologists, at his clinic in Mount Elizabeth Hospital. 

28 Jan 2024 

SINGAPORE: The second most surprising thing about the clinic of eminent cardiologist, Dr Charles Toh Chai Soon, is a handwritten sign wrapped in plastic and stuck to the registration counter.

It reads, in block letters: CASH PAYMENT ONLY. 

Its existence feels antithetical to Singapore’s digital push, not least since the clinic is in Mount Elizabeth Hospital – a private hospital in Orchard Road – where it would be reasonable to assume patients coming to consult a heart specialist expect to pay by card.  

The sign appears less out of place, however, next to the floor-to-ceiling filing cabinets that store patients’ medical records. The records are handwritten, as are the labels on the drawers – a quirk that the receptionist endearingly calls “old school”, like her boss.   

The most surprising thing about the Charles Toh Clinic is that its founder, Dr Toh, seven years shy of turning a century old, is still working full-time.

As a cardiologist, he is a consultant who specialises in the treatment and diagnosis of heart diseases. He is not a cardiac surgeon and does not perform operations. If he were a surgeon, he noted, he would have had to stop working a long time ago.

And god forbid anyone suggest that he take a break.

“Can you imagine doing nothing at all? Very boring,” he said when asked about retirement plans, repeatedly brushing off the prospect of calling it a day.

Dr Toh's desk is stacked with medical literature and biographies, among other reading material. 

LOVE FOR ROUTINE 

Having turned 93 last September, Dr Toh has mastered the science of sticking to a routine.

Every morning, he leaves home at 8am, arriving at work by 8.30am. He settles into his day by visiting his patients in the wards. If the wards are “quiet”, he heads to the doctors' lounge on the second floor to have breakfast before his clinic opens at 9am. 

Come lunchtime, which is usually from 12.30pm to 2pm, he may take a teleconference call or spend his break in the doctors' lounge with other physicians.

When he feels like it, he goes to Lucky Plaza or Paragon shopping centre situated near the hospital to “jalan jalan” (take a walk), he said. 

His afternoon routine mirrors his morning’s, except for Saturdays, where he only works half a day until 1pm. On weekdays, the clinic closes at 5pm. Before leaving the hospital, he usually visits his patients in the wards again. 

Occasionally, he treats himself to a foot massage at Lucky Plaza before going home.

Dr Toh during his lunch break with two colleagues in the doctors' lounge at Mount Elizabeth Hospital. 

Understanding Dr Toh’s adherence to his routine is key to understanding the medical pioneer, who is credited for much of what cardiology is today in Singapore.

But he summarises his character simply: “Fairly disciplined” and “quite regimented in my way of life”.  

His biography published by World Scientific Publishing, titled Heart to Heart, provides a more detailed explanation. In a chapter written by his second son, Dr Toh Han Chong, deputy CEO at the National Cancer Centre, the younger Dr Toh said his father has “an ascetic self-discipline, and is very punctual and precise”.

For instance, his father walks the dog in the evening at a particular time, the 60-year-old wrote, “and one can almost set one’s watch to when he starts doing this”. 

His father is also “very fixed in his habits”, the younger Dr Toh elaborated in person. “He always plays golf on Sunday, and if it starts raining, he gets really upset because it breaks that cycle.”

The nonagenarian's commitment to stick to the course is also reflected in his sparing wants. He is “simple in his tastes and lifestyle” due to deep Japanese influence. During World War II, he was enrolled in a Japanese school in Ipoh, Malaysia, where he was born. 

“Even till today, his lunch is usually a simple bento box,” wrote the younger Dr Toh. And in any Italian restaurant, his father would “almost always order spaghetti bolognese or carbonara”. 

Dr Toh writes a prescription in his office. 

Dr Toh records his appointments and other notes in a little notebook. 

The older Dr Toh’s methodical nature also underpins his attraction to cardiology, a branch of internal medicine. The study of the heart is “almost mathematical”, he stated in his book.  

While pursuing his postgraduate studies in the UK during the late 1950s, the young doctor chose to specialise in cardiology because it is based on “very exact parameters, with logical conclusions based on a fixed set of clinical assessment tests and investigations”. 

Cardiology requires “you listen to the heartbeat and check the pulse”, he told CNA. “You calculate this, you calculate that, you do the ECGs (electrocardiogram) and so forth.”

A PEOPLE PERSON AT HEART    

After moving to Singapore in 1960, Dr Toh worked as a junior consultant at the Singapore General Hospital’s (SGH) Department of Clinical Medicine. In his time at SGH, he was involved in developing its Department of Cardiology. 

At the same time, Dr Toh was a lecturer; SGH was the main teaching hospital in the country then. In class, the cardiologist had a reputation for being fierce and wouldn’t hesitate to tell off students if they examined the patient wrongly. 

One of his students, Dr Lee Wei Ling, the daughter of founding Prime Minister Lee Kuan Yew, “refused to be in my ward”, he recalled laughing. “Then her father asked why. She told her father, ‘I’m too scared of him.’”

There was no shortage of prominent figures in Dr Toh’s storied career, according to his biography, including some who were his patients. In 1968, for example, he was called to help care for Singapore’s first President, the late Yusof Ishak, who had been hospitalised for an irregular heartbeat. 

And in his office today – alongside medical journals and magazines, Southeast Asian art and photos of his grandchildren – stand a couple of photos with his late friend and former President S R Nathan, whom Dr Toh remembers as a “very nice” man.

Dr Toh talks to his clinic assistant about a patient case.

Dr Toh chats with the receptionists at his clinic - one of many interactions he enjoys throughout a regular day. 

Despite his illustrious achievements, Dr Toh is perhaps living his best life in his golden years. Having forged a path for younger cardiologists and medical professionals to enjoy the fruits of his labour, he can now focus on what he loves most: Meeting people. 

On a 10-minute stroll around his usual haunts in the hospital, he morphs into a tour guide, sharing the history of certain clinics and their specialists. Just before heading off for the day to meet a friend at Lucky Plaza, he runs into two young Malaysian workers from another clinic at the lift lobby – who light up as though they've met their grandfather – and doles out praise for Malaysians. 

And in his office, a computer is noticeably missing from his desk. It would be a “distraction”, preventing him from giving undivided attention to his patient, Dr Toh explained matter-of-factly.

“I enjoy medicine. It’s so interesting because you’re seeing different people all the time. And of course, when you come to the hospital, you see your colleagues. You have tea and lunch together,” he added. 

“As you get older, the volume of your patients goes down; it’s only natural. But I can’t imagine doing nothing at home. There are a lot of people who look forward to retirement, but once they retire, they find they are so bored.” 

Dr Toh's wife died over a decade ago and his three children all have flourishing careers and families of their own, so he has even more reason to continue working.

Singapore's retirement age is “still quite young”, he said. “There are many people after retirement who still go into some kind of business with their colleagues or sit on some director board.” 

Dr Toh’s sprawling resume in his biography lists around 15 directorship or membership positions on statutory boards from 1968. This includes being chairman of the National Medical Research Council from 1994 to 2000 and deputy chairman of the Public Service Commission from 2010 to 2013.

“Dad was invited to join politics, but he said no because he enjoys seeing patients," the younger Dr Toh shared. 

Dr Toh calls a patient to set up an appointment. 

ACTIVE IN ALL WAYS 

While Dr Toh believes one should remain physically and mentally active at all ages, he acknowledged that in some professions, there are “limitations” to continue working at his age. 

For instance, a dentist or surgeon depends heavily on their hands and technical skills, making it unlikely that they can remain in practice in their 90s. 

“Internal medicine is different because you’re giving an opinion; you’re not operating on people. Different professions have different demands, and in the end, expectations cannot be the same,” he said. 

How, then, does one land a career fulfilling enough to work decades beyond the typical retirement age without burning out? There are only two things that should matter to young people, advised Dr Toh. 

Their interest and their strength. 

There is “no point” in having one without the other, he said. 

“In the first place, you must choose the right career. When you choose one that isn’t your top choice, you may burn out earlier. The second point is, in certain careers, you have no choice (but to retire at a certain age).

“Of course, you may not think about all these things when you’re young … You only think about what you’re interested in.” 

The problem, however, is that “as some people age, their mental abilities go down”, noted Dr Toh. If that happens with physicians, “it’s not easy to practise” as they could prescribe the wrong medication. 

“Your mind has to be still intact – but to keep your mind intact is not the easiest thing to do.” 

Dr Toh walks to Lucky Plaza from Mount Elizabeth Hospital to meet a friend after work.

But Dr Toh’s mind isn’t merely intact enough to continue practising. He also takes pride in having “wider interests” than his profession – a necessity, he believes, for a long and fulfilling life. 

“I read a lot about Southeast Asian cultures and history … and I love music. Music is one of my great loves. There is also some interesting biological evidence that listening to music is good for the brain. It keeps the mind going,” he said.

“Of course, being in touch with people is important too … having that interaction. Watching TV is too passive for me.” 

Asked what he would like to be remembered for after his death, Dr Toh replied with a twinkle in his eye: “For leading a fulfilling, complete life.” 

Towards the end of an hour-long chat, he gets restless – an extra spring in his step gives him away. He quickly but politely says his goodbyes before zipping off to his next appointment, for there is still more to do and much to live for.

Lifelong Dedication to Medicine – Interview with Dr Charles Toh

This is the full version of this article.

Dr Charles Toh graduated MBBS from Sydney Medical School in 1955. He is a Fellow of the Royal College of Physicians (London), the Royal Australasian College of Physicians, the American College of Cardiology and is also an International Fellow in Clinical Cardiology, American Heart Association. For his pioneering of cardiology, Dr Toh has been regarded by many as Singapore’s Father of Cardiology. SMA News Editor, Dr Tina Tan (TT), speaks with Dr Charles Toh (CT) on his lifelong experiences and learns about how his work and practice may have changed as he grew older.

TT: Hi Dr Toh, thank you for meeting with us today. In our October issue which looks into the topic of doctors and retirement, we want to find out what someone like you who has been practising for so long thinks about the topic. Such topics are very interesting to me as I am in geriatric psychiatry, even more so in light of our ageing population. I saw in the newspaper just the other day that 18% of our population are aged 65 years and above.

First of all, how did you come to start this practice here in Mount Elizabeth Medical Centre (MEMC)?

CT: Well, I left the University of Singapore in 1975. For the first five years, I worked in Plaza Singapura. There, I rented a room for about five years, and I moved over here in 1980. The MEMC was not open until 1979.

The reason I moved was because I have always believed that, medically speaking, one should be in the same geographical area as the hospital. That way, you get an emergency call and you can be down there in five minutes.

Imagine if you got an emergency call and you had to travel to Youngberg Memorial Hospital (more commonly referred to as Seventh-Day Adventist Hospital) along Upper Serangoon Road, how long it would have taken for you to get there?

TT: Yes, especially so for specialists who have to do urgent interventions in the middle of the night.

CT: So, when I was in Plaza Singapura, it was quite tough, because every morning, I would start work, by going to Mount Alvernia Hospital for a ward round. From Mount Alvernia Hospital, I would go to the Seventh-Day Adventist Hospital in Serangoon Road. And then in the afternoon, I would go to Gleneagles Hospital. I had to visit three hospitals in a day until Mount Elizabeth Hospital opened up.

40 years on, today

TT: That sounds very tiring indeed. And right now, what’s your typical workday like?

CT: Of course, I mean as you get older, the work volume will be less. When I started my clinic here in 1980, I was only one of three cardiologists here – the others being Dr Albert Wee and Dr Lim Chin Hock. Now, there are about 50 of us in MEMC.

TT: Wow, that is a huge increase. But is there now more work to go around?

CT: Yes. Of course, for my side, much of my workload has reduced as I get older. Patients-wise, some have passed away, and some may stop coming. Many Malaysians used to come over to Singapore for treatment; now Malaysian healthcare services are quite advanced and expanded, so many of them will receive medical treatment in Johor Bahru, Kuala Lumpur, Penang and even Kuching. A lot of Medanese patients will go to Penang now as it is so near and more affordable.

TT: I see, because it is closer to them.

CT: Yes, so there is no need to come here, unless the patient has a specific doctor to visit. And of course, many of my patients have aged and passed away. In fact, the healthcare capabilities of Indonesia itself have also improved. There are several good private and government healthcare centres in Jakarta and Surabaya, and to a lesser extent in Medan. But Indonesia is such a big country, with a population of more than 270 million people. So, it is not possible for them to service everybody quickly. That is why some still choose to come to Singapore for medical treatment.

The main foreign patients here in Singapore are still the Indonesians. Fewer Malaysians come here these days. I used to get people from Bangladesh as well, but now they go to Thailand because healthcare in Thailand is much cheaper. Their healthcare standards are good, and it is only about half the price here!

TT: Yes, even Singaporeans are going there.

CT: Yes. And for my side, as I grow older, I get fewer patients. I do not really mind it though. I accept it.

As such, I am not as busy as I used to be. Formerly, I used to start at 8 o’clock in the morning and did not finish till 7 o’clock in the evening. [laughs] Now I finish at 5 o’clock and can even go jalan jalan (Malay for walk or stroll) during lunch time.

TT: Well, you have come a long way to now enjoy that type of lifestyle. So, how has work challenged you differently now compared to last time, especially when it comes like physical and even mental challenges?

CT: Of course, in the early days, I was much busier simply because there were fewer cardiologists. I got night calls almost every night. I would have four or five patients in the wards. If anything urgent happened, they would call me, and I would have to go and conduct a visit, which was almost every evening, either at MEMC or other hospitals.

Now, I have fewer patients. I may have one or two inpatients now when I used to have five or six.

The facilities in the private sector have improved a lot as well. They now have positron emission tomography scans, CT scans, and all that. Physically though, it has not been that different for me. With the decreased workload, it has been very manageable, so I am less busy and stressed.

TT: Excellent! [laughs] A more specialty-specific question next: what are the conditions that you now see/manage that are different from last time?

CT: Well, cardiovascular-wise, we now see fewer cases of valvular disease. Twenty years ago, there was much more valvular disease and heart valve surgeries were much more common. These days, the concentration is on coronary artery disease. Procedure-wise, heart bypass surgeries are still going on, but balloon angioplasty has deferred and replaced quite a significant number of potential bypass surgery cases.

TT: What were the challenges you, or maybe your friends, had to overcome, in order to continue work past the official retirement age?

CT: I mean, dementia is the biggest factor. Once you have got dementia, you will have to give up practising. But I think, fortunately, being a physician is easier because we are not as dependent on technical skills. If you are a surgeon, it may be a bit harder to work after the age of 70. Although there are surgeons like Dr Tong Ming Chuan, who is still doing very well at the age of 75; in general, I would think that physicians are not as disadvantaged compared to surgeons.

TT: Out of curiosity, who is the oldest practising surgeon whom you have known of?

CT: In the old days, Dr Yeoh Ghim Seng was one of them, he was probably 70 years or older. Former president Dr Benjamin Sheares, from O&G, continued practising till he was about 75 years old. He delivered all three of my boys; Han Shih, Han Chong and Han Li were delivered by Dr Sheares in Gleneagles Hospital.

TT: What about physicians?

CT: Physicians can practise for longer. I am 92 years old.

TT: That’s great! You are truly a role model.

CT: It is helpful to stay slim, not get greedy or fat, avoid getting diabetes and avoid smoking. [laughs]

TT: Yes, that’s true. But genetics play a part too.

CT: Perhaps that is true. My mother passed away at about 85 years old, my father passed away at 75 years old. Of course, in those days, healthcare standards were poor in Malaysia.

TT: In those times, to be able to live up to 85 years old was considered quite a feat!

CT: True! My mother worked in her diamond jewellery business until she was 80 years old. My mother was a Nyonya from Penang. She married my father from Ipoh and continued her diamond business in Ipoh. I used to help her when I was a kid. She had even asked me to go to Antwerp to learn diamond-cutting, but I declined.

TT: Where did she get her diamonds from?

CT: Oh, she buys from the local Jews, the Flinters (UK) and Greenberg’s (UK). She buys diamonds from them, then design and set it up for sale. Sometimes, she would buy from the Nyonya in Penang their kerongsang (traditional Nyonya brooch) and such items. They would dig out the diamonds and reset them with new designs. Since I used to help her, I learnt a lot about diamonds as well. That was why she wanted to send me to Antwerp, where they did all the cutting and diamond trading. My father was a banker, he was the manager of Hong Kong Bank, Ipoh.

Retirement: yes or no?

TT: So, we have talked about surgeons and physicians, and how one set may have a shorter “shelf life”. As a physician then, what would you feel are the reasons for other doctors and also yourself as to why one would retire later versus earlier?

CT: My personal opinion is that you should not retire if you can continue with the work satisfactorily. There are a lot of people who are mistaken; they think, “Wow, I look forward to retiring.” But a while after they retire, they might find that they are constantly bored.

Personally, I kept up teaching in SGH until about twenty years ago. I used to give classes – tutorials – there once a week to medical students. But I remained active in Medical Boards like the Medical Research Council and the National Cancer Centre Research Fund.

TT: In my practice, I often see that when a husband retires and starts spending a lot of time at home with the wife, there is a period of adjustment and conflict. Especially if the man has to figure out what to do now that he’s no longer working.

CT: Yes, they have nothing to do so they nag at each other. People do not really think about this. But of course, unfortunately, in certain professions one has got no choice. For example, if you are a civil servant, it can be more challenging since the public service may not re-employ you.

If you are a surgeon requiring certain technical skills in your work, you may experience some difficulty after a certain age as well. But physicians are still alright, because you are using your brains only. You are a psychiatrist, right? You can go up to 103 even.

TT: Yes, but I do not know if I would work all the way till 103! I am sure you have friends who retired much earlier though, what were their motivations?

CT: Actually, there were many of them. They were very busy in the private sector, and they looked forward to having more time to themselves after retirement. What they did not realise was that having too much time suddenly can be really boring. By which time, it is too late; they cannot go back to their work once they have retired.

I miss some of my fellow senior doctors. Some of them have retired and refuse to work anymore. The younger doctors who start up new practices do not know who I am.

TT: Did you know of people who went through that experience where they retired and realised that it was not all rosy?

CT: Oh yes, of course. Some of them were very bored. I personally think that they may also develop dementia earlier.

TT: Inactivity and a lack of stimulation probably contributes to that. So then, what is your advice to someone who might be pondering when he/she should retire, and what should a doctor consider regarding retirement?

CT: I think, firstly, it depends on your profession. If you are a surgeon, I cannot tell you to not retire because your hands may not be as good as it was before. But if you are a psychiatrist or a cardiologist like me, you may not need to do procedures yourself. If you can get younger doctors to do them when needed, then you can stay on until you feel like you really cannot work anymore. I really do not think that we should have a set retirement age.

TT: In this case, do you have a retirement plan?

CT: [sighs] Yes, but I am a bit worried that if I were to retire, I would not know what to do with my time. I would be very bored, you see. I love music, and that can keep me going, I suppose. I can probably have a dog as well.

TT: Usually when doctors consider retirement, one thing that may be on their minds is “what happens to my patients?”

CT: That is not so difficult in my opinion. We pass on our patients to colleagues we know, although the patient may not accept it. After all, they may have made their own choices. Patients are all survivalists. Some of my patients have stopped seeing me because they think I am getting old, so they go to younger doctors, and you just have to accept it. But some of them who are used to you, they will stick with you.

TT: What about the practice? Your clinic space, staff, etc.

CT: When you retire, it cannot be helped. Staff may have to be let go, items and unit sold, etc. For instance, I actually had two units here. When my volume and workload reduced, I rented out the other unit space and kept this unit running. When I was very busy, say 20 years ago, I had four staff, but now I have two.

Lifetime of doctoring

TT: For your long-time patients, what is the length of the longest time you have known and attended to a patient?

CT: I think it may be 40 years or so. Some of these are patients that I have had since working in Singapore General Hospital (SGH).

TT: What conditions do they have, that they have been seeing you for 40 years?

CT: Well, many of them started with hypertension, then gradually they developed diabetes and coronary heart disease, then they have a bypass. And that then keeps them alive for another 20 years.

TT: There are GPs who have patients for a very, very long time, and they treat not just the patient’s chronic illness, but the patients’ families too. Do you have such experiences as well? Do you treat the entire family?

CT: Yes, sometimes siblings and families; they will recommend the doctor to one another.

TT: It can be a very different type of relationship with your patients then. When did you first start medical practice?

CT: I graduated in 1955. And then I spent three years working in Australia, followed by another three years in the UK. When I came back in 1959, the People’s Action Party had just come into power. I worked in SGH at that time and I stayed in the government quarters at Sepoy Line, behind the medical school.

TT: What was it like then?

CT: Very nice! It was relatively quiet in those days, in the sense that you did not see many heart surgeries; but the wards could be extremely crowded.

TT: Were there a lot more cases of infectious disease?

CT: Yes, many cases of pneumonia and dysentery. The old general wards in SGH used to take about 24 patients. However, during admission days, it could take up to 40, so we added centre beds along the corridors. Every morning, we would have to do a ward round and see all the patients! [laughs]

At that time, I came back as a lecturer – equivalent to being the registrar today – and there was one medical officer and one houseman working under me. Only three people, and we looked after 40 patients. And you still have the outpatients, from 11 o’clock till about 1 o’clock. We generally reserved our afternoons for teaching or meetings.

Most of the patients those days were C-class patients; they were very poor. There were many accidents and pneumonia cases in those days. At that time, there were very few private wards – the B and A class wards. When I was in Medical Unit 2, the private ward would be upstairs with about 30 beds.

TT: Were there any interesting encounters in the private ward?

CT: I will always remember President Yusof Ishak – he was admitted there in the 1960s. He came in with an atrial flutter, and we performed the first electric shock on him, a DC shock. I continued looking after President Ishak for his follow ups. On National Days, he would have to go to the Padang, and I would follow and sit at the back – in case anything went wrong.

At that time, it was very crowded in SGH, and then the 1964 race riots took place. It occurred at Geylang Serai and a lot of people were killed. The hospital was packed. Another incident I remember was when Malaysia had a riot in 1969 in Kuala Lumpur (KL). Quite a few of our doctors had moved over, because the new Faculty of Medicine in University of Malaya had started in 1962.

It was founded by Dr Thamboo John Danaraj. People like Dr Ong Siew Chay and others had gone over to the University of Malaya. However, after the riots, they wanted to leave Malaysia, and many considered heading to the US and other foreign countries. I was the Vice Dean of the Faculty of Medicine, University of Singapore at that time. I went over to KL and convinced them to return to Singapore, offering them university jobs. We brought back about five or six of them, mostly surgeons.

TT: How about on 9 August 1965 itself, when Lee Kuan Yew made his announcement that Singapore was leaving Malaysia? Were you at work?

CT: I had just returned from sabbatical leave and saw Mr Lee Kuan Yew giving his speech on television..

Outside of work

TT: How do you look after yourself, your health and body, while you continue practising?

CT: You mean apart from work? Well, I do a lot of things. For instance, I believe in frequent foot massages. I believe that there is some benefit to it. I go for foot massages twice a week, half an hour each session, especially since it is so convenient.

I also play golf on the weekends, and I walk with the doggies every day, so I keep active. I believe in having a good dog because it is somebody you can nag; you cannot nag your wife and family all the time. There is evidence that people who own pets are healthier.

I listen to music a lot as well. That is my other hobby. Even when I am driving, my music is on all the time. Every time I drive, I play my CDs – my favourite singer is Teresa Teng (Deng Lijun), as well as some English, French, Indonesian and Japanese music. I know many Japanese songs as I went to Japanese school as a little boy. I am also a strong supporter of the classics, Brahms, Beethoven, and all that.

When I was studying in Australia, I had a guardian who was very musically inclined. He was a great pianist, and he would take me to concerts once a week at the Sydney Concert Hall. Later on, when I went to the UK for my postgraduate, I would always go to London Festival Hall for concerts as well.

TT: Is there anything else that you think you do that keeps you sharp?

CT: To me, it has always been interaction and music. I read a lot as well, apart from medical texts. My habit is that I will read for about 45 minutes before going to bed.

TT: That is a very good practice indeed! Thank you for your time today, and for sharing your thoughts regarding doctors and our lifelong work in medicine, Dr Toh!